Hypostatic Union

[jarrod]

At his Baptism, however, I believe He was given the Spirit of the Lord (3rd personality involved) to give back what He divested Himself of at the incarnation as a newborn.

Hmm, I was just reading this again and I thinking I needed to think about this more. I was discussing this with my wife last night and that helped me work through some points that may have been incomplete.

I believe Christ always had the Spirit of God. I believe the Spirit was always present in Him; there wasn't a time when He wasn't still _God_ in the flesh. However, I believe it may be the fullness of the Spirit returning, or amplifying, _some_ of the traits that He may have emptied Himself of in order to humble Himself as a bondservant.

Hmmm...

[mattrose]

One could well argue that Jesus' miracles were the result of His being filled with the Spirit, not the result of His being fully God. Some Scriptures explicitly say as much. Besides, if miracle working equals deity, then there are many other gods in the Bible (like Peter and Paul, for example).

I do not deny that Jesus is God. I believe in the Trinity more today than I ever have. But I hold to a very kenotic christology. Jesus voluntarily limited himself to the realm of humanity during his tenure on earth. His deity, in my opinion, is argued in other ways.

I definitely see your point of contention. However, I believe you may be using the simple statement "His being filled with the Spirit" (we hear it all the time?) making it to be less than it really is. Steve in some recent lectures (Kingdom of God) talks about how we devalue the word "Lord," mainly because it's hard to understand the concept of a _bondservant_ in America.

He was filled with the Lord, but it was not so normally as you or I. The result was the Spirit of God indwelling the Word of God (who was there from the beginning since He was fully God). The Spirit chose to bless Him richly and He possessed fully the gifts of God -- how? -- because the fullness of Deity dwelt in bodily form -- the Spirit of God, indwelling a man. The Spirit, who hovered over the face of the deep, is multi-dimensional (for lack of a better word) and exists in all places at once. But Jesus, God taking on flesh, was imparted the portion of the Spirit that was everything God.

Taking it further...

I don't really understand how anything you said there relates to what I said.

The last paragraph of your opening post attempts states that we can know that Jesus was fully man based on things like hunger, bleeding, and need for sleep. I agree. But then you suggested that we can know Jesus was fully God based on things like miracles. I don't agree. If miracles were the means to prove deity, then Peter and Paul (and countless others) would also have to be classified as God. Is it just because Jesus did more miracles that makes Him God? That seems unlikely since Jesus stated that they would do even more miracles than Him.

I am certainly not trying to direct you away from the deity of Christ. I wholly affirm it. I just think you're barking up the wrong tree. At best, miracles can only be a small part of defending his deity. I list it (below) as one of a number of arguments that COLLECTIVELY demonstrate his deity:

1. The Christmas Story
What is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit (Matt 1:20)
So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God (Luke 1:35)
Give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people (Matt 1:21)
And they will call him immanuel – which means, “God with us” (Matt 1:23)
We have seen his star in the east and have come to worship him (Matt 2:2)
His kingdom will never end (Luke 1:33)
Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel… because he has come (Luke 1:68)
A Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord (Luke 2:11)

2. Divine Titles
The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God (Mark 1:1)
This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased (Matt 3:17)
You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God (Matt 16:16)
Let God rescue him... for he said, ‘I am the Son of God’ (Matt 27:43)
How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them (Matt 9:15)
You will see the Son of Man… with great power and glory (Mark 13:26)
Calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God (John 5:18)

3. Teaching & Acting with Authority
He gives orders to evil spirits and they obey him! (Mark 1:27)
But I tell you (Matt 5:22, 28, 32, 34, 39, 44)
He called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them (Luke 6:13)
For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath (Matt 12:8)
On this rock I will build my church (Matt 16:18)
This is my body… this is my blood (Matt 26:26, 28)
All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me (Matt 28:18)
We saw a man driving out demons in your name (Mark 9:38)
In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matt 28:19)

4. Miracle Working
He thus revealed his glory (John 2:11)
What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him! (Matt 8:27)
What’s this wisdom… that he even does miracles (Mark 6:2)
Believe the miracles… that the Father is in me, and I in the Father (John 10:38)

5. Forgiveness of Sins
He said to the paralytic, ‘Son, your sins are forgiven’ (Mark 2:5)
He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone (Mark 2:7)
The Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins (Luke 5:24)
Then Jesus said to her, ‘Your sins are forgiven’ (Luke 7:48)
Who is this who even forgives sins? (Luke 7:49)

6. The I AM Statements
I AM the bread of life… that came down from heaven (John 6:35, 41)
I AM the light of the world. Whoever follows me… will have life (John 8:12)
Before Abraham was born, I AM! (John 8:58)
At this, they picked up stones to stone him (John 8:59)
I AM the gate, whoever enters through me will be saved (John 10:7, 9)
I AM the good shepherd (10:11, 14)
I AM the resurrection and the life, he who believes in me will live (John 11:25)
I AM the way, and the truth, and the life (John 14:6)
I AM the true vine (John 15:1)
When Jesus said, ‘I AM He,’ they drew back and fell to the ground (John 18:6)

7. The Transfiguration
There he was transfigured before them, his face shone like the sun (Matt 17:2)
This is my Son, who I love… Listen to him! (Matt 17:5)
They saw his glory and the two men standing with him (Luke 9:32)
When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone (Luke 9:36)

8. Testimony from Witnesses in the Know
And the Word was with God and the Word was God (John 1:1)
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us (John 1:14)
God the One and Only, has made him Known (John 1:18)
I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God (John 1:34)
What do you want with me Jesus, Son of the Most High God (Mark 5:7)
He would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was (Mark 1:34)
Surely he was the Son of God (Matt 27:54)

9. Direct Claims
Except the one who came from heaven – The Son of Man (John 3:13)
No one knows who the Father is except the Son (Luke 10:22)
Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father (John 14:9)
I and the Father are one (John 10:30)
You, a mere man, claim to be God (John 10:33)
You are right in saying I am (Luke 22:70)
I am with you always, to the very end of the age (Matt 28:20)

10. Acceptance of Worship
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him (Matt 14:33)
Then the man said, ‘Lord, I believe,’ and he worshiped him (John 9:38)
When they saw him, they worshiped him (Matt 28:17)
Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’ (John 20:28)
Then they worshiped him (Luke 24:52)

As for the 'math' problem... I look at it this way. If our belief is that with God all things are possible (except for logical contradictions), then it should be possible for God to take on flesh. Of course, one can wonder (as you are) if such a thing is logically contradictory (how can an OMNI-being take on limitations?), but history indicates that He's able, since Jesus REALLY was in need of food, sleep, etc. and capable of dying, not knowing things, etc.

[jarrod]

But then you suggested that we can know Jesus was fully God based on things like miracles. I don't agree. If miracles were the means to prove deity, then Peter and Paul (and countless others) would also have to be classified as God. Is it just because Jesus did more miracles that makes Him God? That seems unlikely since Jesus stated that they would do even more miracles than Him.

I am certainly not trying to direct you away from the deity of Christ. I wholly affirm it. I just think you're barking up the wrong tree. At best, miracles can only be a small part of defending his deity. I list it (below) as one of a number of arguments that COLLECTIVELY demonstrate his deity:

Well, I must have misspoke if I communicated that I believe Jesus was God because of _only_ miracles. I do agree with you and we may even be saying the same thing or perhaps I misunderstood you as well. I do not and will not base my belief of Jesus' deity solely on the work of miracles. I did not read my original post again, but I thought I used "miracles" in a list of other things (and that list not even being exhaustive). You did a much better job of enumerating other evidences than myself.

Thanks!

Jarrod

[mattrose]

I was probably over-reading your original post.

I like the idea of defining God not so much as the sum total of His attributes, but by the core of His character.

To me, Jesus was shown to be God while on this earth primarily by His character and claims. Proving his deity wasn't his mission. His deity is the best conclusion to draw from his life.

[Paidion]

...there wasn't a time when He wasn't still _God_ in the flesh.

This suggests to me that Jesus was, in fact, the Father, that the Father was born as a human being and was called Jesus. Is this what you mean by "God in the flesh". If not, in what sense are you using the word "God" in the phrase "God in the flesh"? You have made clear that you don't mean "The Trinity in the flesh". So how are you using the word "God" in this phrase?

So I see Jesus as divine by virtue of the fact of having been begotten by God who is divine, just as each of us is human by virtue of the fact of having been begotten by man. It can be affirmed that He is "God" in the sense of His being divine, just as each of us can be said to be "man" in the sense of being human.

Yes, I was thinking from your response that possibly you didn't see what I was getting at here.

I am not feline. I am not canine. I am not divine. I am human.
Cats beget (or produce) offspring. They are cats and are feline. Each cat is not the same inidividual as its parents.
Dogs beget offspring. They are dogs and are canine. Each dog is not the same individual as its parents.
People beget offspring. They are people and are human. Each person is not the same individual as his parents.
God begat one offspring. He is God (Deity) and is divine. The son of God is not the same Individual as His Father.

The early Christian writers contrasted the fact that God is unbegotten while His Son was begotten before all ages as an act of God. For example:

But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before the ages, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin.[/color] Ignatius to the Trallians (long) Ch 7.

A fascinating passage indeed! The writer speaks of two Physicians --- the Father, the only true God, the unbegotten God, and The Lord our God, Jesus the Messiah, the only-begotten Son [begotten] before the ages. He is able to call both the Father and the Son “God” and yet he distinguishes between the Father as unbegotten and the Son as having been begotten before the ages.

Justin Martyr compared the begetting of the Son of God to a fire being lit from a greater fire. He also indicated that He is properly called "God".

He was begotten by the Father by an act of will... just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled another, but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. Dialogue With Trypho Chap LXI

When these and other early Christian writers (prior to 200 A.D.) called Jesus "God" they didn't mean:

1. That He was a part of the Trinity (except Tertullian who did espouse a form of Trinitarianism as a Montanist)
2. That He was the same divine Individual as the Father. (Early Christian writers wrote against those who held to Modalism).

What they meant that being the only-begotten Son, He was of the same essence (or "substance") as His Father. There are only two divine Beings — God the Father, and the Son of God. Just as any individual human being is "man", so either divine being is "God".

John 1:1 affirms that the Logos (Christ) was with God. Here, the word "theos" with the article and no other modification, refers to the Father, as it does everywhere in the New Testament. But when it says, "and the Logos was God", the word "God" is used in the generic sense in which Ignatius and Justin Martyr used it.

Indeed, John 1:18 in the two earliest extant manuscripts — Papyrus 66 and Papyrus 75 — state:

No one has ever seen God; the only-begotten God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

In the second instance, the word "God" clearly refers to the Son, who is called "the only-begotten God," For the Father of all is unbegotten. In the first instance, either:
1. "God" refers to the Father in spite of the lack of article.
2. "God" is used in the generic sense, in which case it should read "He has made it known." For "God" in this sense is not a person, but is Deity, an order of Being, of which the Father and the Son are the only members. Just as "humanity" is not a person, but an order of being consisting of all people.

[steve7150]

Steve,
What do you make of John 20:27-29?







Perry,
I think when Thomas says to Jesus "My Lord and my God" , that Thomas didn't mean that Jesus was God Almighty of everything , but something akin to "divine" or perhaps "deity" but as a Jew i don't think Thomas meant he was looking at Yahweh.
Obviously no one except Thomas really knows what he meant, but if we go by what Jesus disciples thought, chances are none of them dreamed of a Trinity.

[steve7150]

Paidion,

When you say Jesus was begotten of God, doesn't this refer to his birth as a human rather to his origins as the Word of God.

[Paidion]

When you say Jesus was begotten of God, doesn't this refer to his birth as a human rather to his origins as the Word of God.

That's what I thought as a teenager, Steve, when I had been taught that Jesus existed throughout "eternity past." But as you can see from the writings I quoted, the second century Christians, and even the Trinitarians who formulated the original Nicene Creed, wrote that Jesus was begotten "before all ages." As I see it, the begetting of the Son marked the beginning of time. Now that doesn't mean the there was a time when the Son of God did not exist, as the Arians supposedly taught. For there was no time before the beginning of time — because "before" itself is a word which expresses time — so there was no "before".

What follows is the original creed set forth at Nicea, A.D. 325. It was altered later. Even later forms retained the statement that the Son of God was begotten as an act of God. It was only much later that the phrase was changed to “eternally begotten”.

THE NICENE CREED
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages,
Only begotten, that is, of the essence of the Father; God of God, Light of Light,
Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one essence with the Father,
Through whom all things were made; both things in heaven and things on earth;
Who for us people, and for our salvation, came down, and was incarnate, and was made man;
He suffered, and was raised again the third day, and ascended into heaven.
And he shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead,
And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
And in one baptism of repentance for deliverance from sins,
And in one holy universal Church,
And in the resurrection of the flesh,
And in everlasting life.

[jarrod]

As I see it, the begetting of the Son marked the beginning of time. Now that doesn't mean the there was a time when the Son of God did not exist, as the Arians supposedly taught. For there was no time before the beginning of time — because "before" itself is a word which expresses time — so there was no "before".

Interesting... I think I see what you are saying, I just cannot make that leap. I have always wrestled with eternity (it makes my head spin to think about it!) and how we could be alive _forever_. I finally stopped and just thanked the Lord that He had it all figured out and I trusted His plan.

Thinking about it, time _could_ have always existed could it not (my head is starting to hurt now)? I could not keep track of a "clock" that long, but I am just a finite man. Perhaps the "time" are speaking about is just limited to our understanding of time since the Lord created us.

Hmmm, I don't know if those "unknowns" are fruitful for me to pursue.

THE NICENE CREED

I like the CREED... I love singing the Third Day song. I think, though, studying and interpreting the Bible would be more beneficial than the creed. I'm not implying you are suggesting that nor am I trying to say the Creed isn't great... I'm just thinking out loud.

[Paidion]

I initially made an error. I didn't post the complete original Nicene Creed. I have now edited it to include the latter part which I inadvertantly omitted.