God's Wrath

[jriccitelli]

Once my children are adults, they are now, their choices are their own and God is their Judge. I love my son but my son is not saved, if he dies in his sins he will stand guilty and without hope before God, it's his choice, that’s what I told him.
My correction was to guide them, hopefully they make good choices. But often the punishment given one kid affects the others, and sometimes for this reason alone you have to carry out what you said you would do, and it certainly was a warning to the others that maybe they should avoid that behavior and the consequences.
(Note; this generally refers to not having ice-cream with the others, being kept home from the trip to the store, the school game, or at worst being stuck on a stool in a corner)

Q. Can you even imagine Jesus sentencing someone to death?
I don’t have to imagine it, if that's how it reads in scripture. Who is the God of the Bible? Are not Jehovah and Jesus One? Who opened up the earth as the congregation went down to Sheol? Who is treading out the wine press? Who is coming to execute vengeance on the earth? God is the same as God always was, the only thing that changes is our own mind.
Jesus was not abolishing punishment Jesus was just postponing it. He will judge the hypocrites and sinners on their decision to believe in Him (or something worse may happen).

Who is the person treading out the wine press in the following chapter?

'Why is your apparel red, and Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?
"I have trodden the wine trough alone, and from the peoples there was no man with Me.
I also trod them in My anger and trampled them in My wrath; and their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments, and I stained all My raiment. 4 "For the day of vengeance was in My heart, and My year of redemption has come.5 "I looked, and there was no one to help, and I was astonished and there was no one to uphold; So My own arm brought salvation to Me, and My wrath upheld Me.6 "I trod down the peoples in My anger and made them drunk in My wrath, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth." (Isaiah 63:1-6)

What does Jesus mean when he said "whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him"?
"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.33 But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:33-34)

What do we make of the wrath of God abiding on a person?
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36)

And who are the people fearing in the following verse?
'And they said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb' (Rev.6:16)

[Paidion]

That which vengeful man understands as God's wrath and vengeance, is actually God's tough love, one of his means of correcting, and facilitating change in, those who need it.
All of God's judgments are remedial! Hallelujah!

[kaufmannphillips]

Perry wrote:
Someone like, say, Isaac Asimov, who lived a long and pleasant life (by earthly standards), would die eternally, without ever having even known how wrong he was to promote atheism, or even that there was an opportunity for him to have a shot at eternal life. This seems to be very violent against the idea of justice.

kaufmannphillips wrote:
What is justice?

Perry wrote:
What, you mean you don't know?

A smart response rather than a wise one. I suppose I may know the tree by its fruit.

[Perry]

What is justice?

Perry wrote:
What, you mean you don't know?

kaufmannphillips wrote:
A smart response rather than a wise one. I suppose I may know the tree by its fruit.

Indeed. One might justly question the wisdom of quibbling semantics. I, for one, am not interested in pursuing so fruitless an endeavor. You're barking up the wrong tree.

[kaufmannphillips]

Perry wrote:
Indeed. One might justly question the wisdom of quibbling semantics. I, for one, am not interested in pursuing so fruitless an endeavor. You're barking up the wrong tree.

A clever response rather than a smart one.

Theology is severely hobbled without exploration of semantics. And one's concept of justice is likely to play a significant role in how one prefers to conceptualize G-d's endgame strategy.

[Homer]

And one's concept of justice is likely to play a significant role in how one prefers to conceptualize G-d's endgame strategy.

And all our "conceptions" will not change a thing.

[Homer]

Paidion wrote:

That which vengeful man understands as God's wrath and vengeance, is actually God's tough love, one of his means of correcting, and facilitating change in, those who need it.
All of God's judgments are remedial! Hallelujah!

JR cited:

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36)

Was Jesus ignorant about God's tough love and was this ignorance why Jesus spoke of God's wrath remaining on the person in the future? Why the future tense and why does God's wrath remain on a person who has gone through your purgatory (the non-Catholic, universalist version)?

Seems to me JR quoted scripture and you made yours up.

[kaufmannphillips]

kaufmannphillips wrote:
And one's concept of justice is likely to play a significant role in how one prefers to conceptualize G-d's endgame strategy.

Homer wrote:
And all our "conceptions" will not change a thing.

Well, our conceptions change the way we preach and portray and share G-d with others; which in turn may affect their response to the G-d we have shared with them; which in turn may affect their response to the G-d who is.

Furthermore, our conceptions change the way we interact with other persons - including the vast number of occasions when the way we engage others (e.g., hiring, firing, trusting, disciplining, rewarding, penalizing, legislating, voting) hinges upon our concept(s) of "justice."

[Todd]

Well, our conceptions change the way we preach and portray and share G-d with others; which in turn may affect their response to the G-d we have shared with them; which in turn may affect their response to the G-d who is.

Furthermore, our conceptions change the way we interact with other persons - including the vast number of occasions when the way we engage others (e.g., hiring, firing, trusting, disciplining, rewarding, penalizing, legislating, voting) hinges upon our concept(s) of "justice."

What is justice? It seems to me most folks equate justice with punishment. I don't. Think of it this way. What is an injustice? It is when someone has wronged another, right? Conversely, justice is when someone does the right thing; therefore, justice is synonymous with righteousness. Here's another example. When we read, "He was a just man" we automatically think he was a good man, or a righteous man. It certainly doesn't mean he went around punishing people.

So what does this have to do with judgment? Well, Godly justice is doing the righteous thing, doing that which is good. I don't see it as punishment as so many people assume.

Todd

[Todd]

Paidion wrote:

That which vengeful man understands as God's wrath and vengeance, is actually God's tough love, one of his means of correcting, and facilitating change in, those who need it.
All of God's judgments are remedial! Hallelujah!

JR cited:

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36)

Was Jesus ignorant about God's tough love and was this ignorance why Jesus spoke of God's wrath remaining on the person in the future? Why the future tense and why does God's wrath remain on a person who has gone through your purgatory (the non-Catholic, universalist version)?

Seems to me JR quoted scripture and you made yours up.

I have to agree with Paidion on this one. I don't view John 3:36 as future. When Jesus said, "the wrath of God abides on him", I see it as a present and continuing wrath. When someone is not walking in the Spirit, but instead walks after the flesh, he reaps what he sows and suffers the consequences. The wrath of God will abide on him until he repents. All God's punishments are remedial.

Todd