Barclay was convinced (UR)

Colin
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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by Colin » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:23 pm

The elimination of unchangeably wicked people from the face of the earth can easily be seen to have at least potentially beneficial results for humanity as a whole, and for the prosperity of the kingdom of God. The ultimate annihilation of the incorrigible in hell could also be evaluated through this lens. Hell as a penitentiary (that is, intended to bring about penitence) would be better still—and more consistent with the love of God for all His creatures.

However, eternal torment, which, by definition, does not include the possibility of any relief to anyone, any benefit to anyone, or any object in view, other than the ventilation of perpetual vindictiveness, does not find any parallel in any known acts of God—nor in any but the worst of men.
I think I agree with this, a merciful God would sooner annihilate someone rather than torment them forever. Plus, when looking at verses such at Matt 25:46, I think a plain reading could be that the results/consequences/effect of the punishment are eternal, not necessarily the duration of the punishment.

Which brings me to my current area of study, all of the verses which discuss the lake of fire being the "second death" (Rev. 20:14, 21:8) and being "devoured" (Matt 10:28) and burned up completely (Matt 3:12, Jhn 15:6) and destroyed (2 Peter 3:7). These types of verses seem to support annihilation.

Thoughts?

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Todd
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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by Todd » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:15 pm

It does not mean that justice, love, and truth recommend hitting a man where it hurts, locking him up, or otherwise tormenting him, as an end in itself. It means that justice, love, and truth demand that self-deception should be unmasked. The true character of the man and what he has done must be made plain to every wrongdoer.
I agree with this statement, but only because that is the first step before one can repent. So I would see this punishment as corrective. I see no profit in punishment only designed to harm the one being punished without any hope of reclaiming a soul from evil ways.

Luke 6:29
To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either.

Does this statement speak of God's heart on such things? I don't see any room for retribution here.

Todd

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Todd
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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by Todd » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:37 am

There are two more problems with the CI view.

Problem #1
We are told that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord (to God's glory). In addition, we are told the following:

Romans 10:9-10
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

How can this happen and still have many of these (who confessed Jesus as Lord) be annihilated?

Problem #2
One of the basic premises of the CI view is contained in the following verse.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, ...

However, we are also told that the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Cor 15:26), and that death will be swallowed up in victory (1 Cor 15:54). If this is the case, so that death is destroyed through the resurrection, wouldn't death have to be reinstated through annihilation? This makes no sense at all to me.

Todd

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jriccitelli
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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by jriccitelli » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:32 am

Todd since I see you are online, I will give you my answer to yesterdays post question "why does He not leave them dead? Why resurrect them only to inflict pain and then destroy them again"
If God does 'not' punish sin God would be unjust.
It is not vengeance, (which itself may be just) but a wrong done against another 'demands' justice.
To do nothing would be unjust. So something 'must' be done. Without the shedding of blood (Or death) there is no atonement for sin.
So God offered His Son as the blood (And penalty of death), but the gift must be believed, and 'accepted'.
(Whether everyone accepts, or confesses 'after' death is a different question)
But if they do not accept Gods payment for sin, then they are wilfully rejecting His 'love' also. Then they are left to face the penalty for sin, that is, punishment and then the second death. Then death, with all those dead, are destroyed in the lake of fire. Death is destroyed along with the dead.
To me it seems pretty simple, 'unless' I feel God must convert every single Human to fulfil His will.
But I do not think that has much support, considering all the text telling us to repent, fear and be warned of something terrible. Many expressions of 'not entering in' , 'shall never enter in', and 'doors were locked' etc., say otherwise.
I think God would desire we all convert, but I think this test must have a purpose. And the goal is not necessarily to save every thing He created but to Create one new thing out of the old.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by jriccitelli » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:53 am

Please don’t think I am being unloving when I say God will destroy unbelievers, I do consider God as loving and compassionate and yet still I think His ‘goal’ is to create a ‘new’ man, sometimes at the loss of the first men.

Todd wrote; God's stated will is the salvation of all, "not willing that any should perish..."Conversely, Satan is a liar and a deceiver whose objective is to lead souls to destruction. These are opposite goals. (Todd Nov 27)

‘God’ is the one who said “in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.
The ‘Devil’ is the one who said "You surely will 'not' die.
So the devils goal is to 'fool' people into 'thinking' they will 'not' die, that there is 'no' punishment, and to not worry about it, thus leading them astray, and ultimatly to death 'because' of the devils lie.
God is just allowing the Devil to fulfill Gods will, and the devil is allowed to test mankind, just as God allowed false prophets, and this world to run its course.
God's will is that we be tested. His will be done on earth ‘as it is in heaven’.
("Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin." Exodus 20:20)
It seems that if we assume God’s goal is to ‘simply’ save every soul, then we are ignoring that Gods desires ‘true’ worship in Spirit and truth. He created freewills with a ‘purpose’.
God desires people to ‘repent’, God is seeking those who ‘fear’ Him, and He is seeking those who ‘show’ mercy, who bring forth ‘fruit’.
God is demonstrating mercy ‘and also’ righteous judgment on sin.
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

God was able to create beings that have freewills. Each one ‘neutral’ in potential and each person able to respond, or ignore, the truth revealed to them. If they respond to a little, more will be given, but still they need to respond to what they have been given.
Vine growers prune their vines and much infested and spoiled fruit is cut and thrown away.
Scientists run tests prove their theories, not simply for themselves but to prove to others. Designers test their products, not simply to see if there are mistakes but to prove the product, and also to show the limits of the creation.
(Proving man is indifferent to God)
God is not out to prove ‘mans’ goodness, He is demonstrating ‘His’ goodness.
God demonstrated perfect love for us on the Cross, and men were created with the freewill to freely choose the forgiveness for themselves in the cross, to 'choose' for themselves Gods love. And to be 'tested' on their thankfulness. Choosing does not take away from Gods Holiness. Choosing the good 'demonstrates' that mankind was offered a choice.

If ‘all’ accepted the choice it would not appear that it was a choice after all.
If all ‘rejected’ the Cross it would only demonstrate that “no one seeks after God” and that “God alone is Holy”.
If it is that only ‘some’ people accept the cross, it ‘proves’ to all creation that we need to be ‘quick’ to hear; that we need to hear God, listen to God, respond to God, fear God, believe God, consider God, repent and pray to God, now! “Behold, the hour is at hand”
If all are not ultimately saved, still Gods will is fulfilled, since He also has commanded that we repent;
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)

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Todd
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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by Todd » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:06 pm

jriccitelli wrote:Todd since I see you are online, I will give you my answer to yesterdays post question "why does He not leave them dead? Why resurrect them only to inflict pain and then destroy them again"
If God does 'not' punish sin God would be unjust
This appears to be your opinion. Do you have a scripture to support this assertion? I think God demonstrated through Christ's death that mercy and forgiveness is just.
jriccitelli wrote:But if they do not accept Gods payment for sin, then they are wilfully rejecting His 'love' also. Then they are left to face the penalty for sin, that is, punishment and then the second death.
Then those who have lived their entire lives without having a chance to hear the Gospel are without hope. How can they accept what they never are taught?
jriccitelli wrote:Then death, with all those dead, are destroyed in the lake of fire. Death is destroyed along with the dead..
So it is your view that:

death destroyed = annihilation

I disagree. If people are annihilated, they are dead - death is not destroyed; it is in full effect. The context of 1 Cor 15 is the resurrection of the dead. Therefore:

death destroyed = resurrection

When every person who has ever died is alive in the resurrection, then death has been destroyed.

Todd

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steve
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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by steve » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:00 pm

If ‘all’ accepted the choice it would not appear that it was a choice after all.
I have been wondering about this...and also the related question posed by some here have suggested that universal reconciliation would violate free choice. That is, what if someone just did not wish to be saved, wanted to hate God eternally, and God forced them to believe in spite of themselves?

I can see why some people might disbelieve, rebel and even adopt an attitude of hatred toward God, as they conceive Him, in this lifetime. This is because many people have difficulty believing in invisible, supernatural phenomena, feeling the there is not enough evidence, that the stories of Jesus sound too much like other religious myths that no one would believe, that the persons telling them about Jesus are the least credible people that they can imagine, that the message (which they have heard in a greatly distorted form) does not make any sense, etc. They may become angry at God because of great suffering or injustice which they do not know how to interpret in light of God's professed character. Or they might not even have heard of the God of the Bible at all. Or they may be deceived into thinking that the course of sin and selfishness provides the only comforts a person can find in this life, and the only protection against being exploited by other sinners. The reasons for disbelief may be myriad. All of these are instances of either ignorance or deception.

Even Eve's sin was not committed out of raw hatred for God, but as a result of being deceived. Likewise, we do not read that Adam hated God. He had a choice to make between his wife and God, and he made a foolish choice. However, to suggest that the rebellion in the hearts of men is such that, with the removal of every wrong assumption, of every deception, of the vail that keeps God invisible to us, we would find people still exercising their will in rebellion is a hard proposition to accept without biblical support.

If a group of people are swimming in the ocean and a man on a yacht approaches and announces to the group that they are in great danger and that they are welcome to board his ship and dine with him, some might doubt his words and ignore him, while others would possibly climb aboard. The ones who have rejected the offer do so either because they do not believe there to be significant danger, or because, believing there to be some danger, they do not have a liking for the yachtsman, or they think they can handle any dangers that might arise. They are all exercising their free will.

However, if they were then to notice the dorsal fins of great white sharks beginning to circle them, they might, of their own free will, be induced to change their minds. Many of those who have come to Christ already, of their own free will, have done so because they have become alarmed that their souls were in danger. Some have rejected the message, thinking themselves to be in no danger. It seems to me that those who find themselves in hell would be quickly disabused of any notions that they are safe from harm there. It would be their own free will that would cause them to repent—and for reasons not different in kind from those that led many to repent in this life.

Furthermore, if people have rejected Christ in this life out of sheer contempt or hatred toward Him, can it be thought that these people have adopted this attitude having seen Him as He really is? Do we think Christ to be so unlovable as to inspire hatred toward him in the hearts of people who are not strongly deluded? The Calvinist believes in total depravity, and thinks that men are so evil that, even when they see God as He is, face to face, they will still hate Him. They claim that unregenerate persons will despise God's holiness and goodness. This seems to be a serious insult to God! Many a callous mobster has nonetheless felt compassion for a child or has admired a good man. Millions of unconverted people admired Mother Theresa because of her attractive goodness—which was little other than Christlikeness. Can we imagine that seeing Jesus as He really is could fail to inspire such admiration? Do we not know a Jesus whom any sane person would love, were they to be stripped of all their prejudicial misconceptions about Him. Is it really God and Jesus that they hate, or a distorted impression of who they are? Would not the removal of all blinders, and the true vision of God as He is have the effect of persuading the ignorant, and even the rebellious, that God is good, and that Jesus is not the person that they thought they were objecting to?

I suppose I do not know enough about the hearts and motives of all men to answer these questions with certainty. However, I do not find it inconceivable that all men, when made fully aware of the truth that they lacked in this life, might, fully of their own free will, choose to love and serve God.

The question is whether they will or will not have a chance to make that choice after death, and whether God would accept it if they did. To the latter point I can only accept one answer. Of course God would accept genuine repentance from His creatures, at any time that they were capable of exhibiting it. It is also difficult, on biblical grounds, to make a convincing case that God, who desires that all men should repent, would deprive them of the opportunity to do so postmortem for the sole reason that they were unfortunate enough to die before all the truth could reach them or register properly on their consciousness. The question of whether all, given sufficient opportunity, would choose to repent is the remaining issue.

Colin
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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by Colin » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:40 pm

Steve, I have a question. You believe that someone can fall away and loose their justification during their lifetime, correct?

In the UR view, people whose name is not in the book of life and are tossed into the lake of fire are allowed to "change their mind" and later receive justification. Would it also (at least theoretically) be possible for someone whose name was in the book of life to later fall away and lose their justification? If that happened, would they immediately be tossed into the lake of fire? So would it be (again, at least theoretically) possible for people to move between the lake of fire and the new Jerusalem, back and forth, as they fall away/repent/fall away/repent? How would that correlate with Revelation only discussing a single judgement, where people are sent one way or the other? Instead of a single judgement, would we be continually, eternally judged, with a possibility of being found at any moment just if unjust earlier, and also of being found unjust if earlier just, with no end to the process?

Or, conversely, is it "once you are in, you're in", and you can't be kicked out of the new Jerusalem post-judgement? If this is the case how would it be consistant with the thought that you can lose your justification while here on Earth? What point would there be in even having judgement, why not let everyone in and be done with it?

Any verses that give insite to this?

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Homer
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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by Homer » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:07 am

Do we not know a Jesus whom any sane person would love, were they to be stripped of all their prejudicial misconceptions about Him. Is it really God and Jesus that they hate, or a distorted impression of who they are? Would not the removal of all blinders, and the true vision of God as He is have the effect of persuading the ignorant, and even the rebellious, that God is good, and that Jesus is not the person that they thought they were objecting to?
Sounds like the universalists need to get with it. We can for sure expect their revival meetings to have a 100% conversion rate. Or would it be just the opposite? From what I have read the universalists in New England, mid 19th century, didn't do too well.

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steve
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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by steve » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:29 am

Steve, I have a question. You believe that someone can fall away and loose their justification during their lifetime, correct?

In the UR view, people whose name is not in the book of life and are tossed into the lake of fire are allowed to "change their mind" and later receive justification. Would it also (at least theoretically) be possible for someone whose name was in the book of life to later fall away and lose their justification? If that happened, would they immediately be tossed into the lake of fire? So would it be (again, at least theoretically) possible for people to move between the lake of fire and the new Jerusalem, back and forth, as they fall away/repent/fall away/repent? How would that correlate with Revelation only discussing a single judgement, where people are sent one way or the other? Instead of a single judgement, would we be continually, eternally judged, with a possibility of being found at any moment just if unjust earlier, and also of being found unjust if earlier just, with no end to the process?

Or, conversely, is it "once you are in, you're in", and you can't be kicked out of the new Jerusalem post-judgement? If this is the case how would it be consistant with the thought that you can lose your justification while here on Earth? What point would there be in even having judgement, why not let everyone in and be done with it?

Any verses that give insite to this?
I believe this lifetime is a unique season of opportunity to learn the lessons of faith and pass the tests of obedience, in order to qualify to reign with Christ forever (2 Tim.2:12 / Matt.25:14-30 / Luke 19:12-27). Only those who remain faithful unto death are thus crowned (Rev.2:10; 20:4-5). Some people never turn to Christ in this lifetime, and others do for awhile, but fall away under testing (Luke 8:13). Both groups fail the test and are deprived (I think eternally) of the privilege for which they were expected to seek to qualify (Rom.2:6-7, 10), and they are thereafter cast into the lake of fire because their names are not found written in the book of life (Rev.20:15). This includes those who once were believers, but did not endure, and had their names expunged from the book as a result (Rev.3:5).

In the lake of fire, we do not know what happens, but the UR theory suggests that people may yet repent and be released to dwell under the reign of the saints. In my opinion, these who were not faithful in life have forever forfeited their opportunity to reign with Christ (because they refused to suffer with him). If there is any return from the lake of fire to the new earth, it is to the environs outside the city gates of New Jerusalem.

As for those in the New Jerusalem defecting, and requiring to be sent to the lake of fire, I do not think this can happen. This is not because we will be deprived of our freedom of will in the resurrection, but we will be liberated from every power and influence that presently prevents us from fulfilling our true will—which is to always please God—fully. Those in the New Jerusalem will be there because they loved God in this life and had no greater desire than to serve and obey Him. Encumbered with their fallen flesh, in a corrupting world, facing the wiles of the devil, the saints in this life find, as Paul did, that "you cn not do what you want to do" (Gal.5:17), which is, of course, to live a perfectly holy life. In the resurrection, none of these disadvantages will be present, so there will be nothing to induce us to go wrong. Our testing will be no more, since life in the New Jerusalem is reserved for those who have already passed their earthly season of testing successfully (Rev.7:14-17).

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