John 14 and Heaven

[darinhouston]

The man tells me it's similar to yours (well, mine, actually - I might not have explained it the way you would have -- definitely not as artfully). These people are very brief in their responses -- the name was the only response to my inquiry, below:

I've read that section -- it's a bit light. Anything more "robust?"

I take what seems to be a pretty minority view of John 14 (heard first from Steve Gregg and now I can't shake it) -- I see the Lord's house (as everywhere else) referring to the Temple of the Holy Spirit, but in the NT, the Temple refers either to Christ Himself or to those of us who are "in" Him, and the "dwelling places" are "us" or "us in Him" (as the body of Christ is now the Temple). The "going away" was necessary to prepare that place (so that our hearts could be made heards of flesh instead of hearts of stone to receive the Holy Spirit) but I don't think the passage requires an interpretation that the place which was prepared was in the place where Jesus was going (i.e., Heaven). This is particularly likely to me since the following chapter is Christ explaining that He must go away so the Comforter could come, and also since most of John is pertaining to the "here and now" aspects of salvation. I do take the text in this passage regarding His coming again to take us to be with Him as referring to the second coming and our dwelling with Him bodily in the New Earth, so this passage to me deals both with the "already" and the "not yet."

Is anyone aware of any significant commentators or theologians who have taken such a view? After hearing it and studying it out, I can't read it any other way anymore. But, I always pause when I take a view of Scripture that differs from most from a variety of camps/traditions.

Thanks
Darin -- Houston, TX
non-denominational

The more I think about it, though, the more inclined I am to consider the whole section as dealing with the "here and now (or soon anyway) and not the end time "not yet."

[thrombomodulin]

Jesus was clearly going to be with the Father in heaven (Acts 3:21/1 Peter 3:22/Phil.3:20). This is not ambiguous. However, heaven is never referred to as the Father's "house"—nor does Jesus mention anything about His going away to the Father's "house." The Father is not in only one place. He is in every place—but not every place is referred to as His "house."

In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you.

The NIV would lead one to believe, contrary to Steve, that Jesus did mention something about His going away to his Father's house (or at least the rooms which comprise the house). The KJV and NASB do not insert the word "there". Is this an error of the translators, or does the appearance of the word "there" have some basis in the Greek?

[darinhouston]

Does anyone have a link to Steve's youtube video on this?

[Candlepower]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQw9Y56n0gk

[mattrose]

Steve... could you provide a amplified-bible style paraphrase to John 14:1-4 which lays out your interpretation if you get a chance? Or, just correct the following to clarify your view:

"Don't be troubled by the fact that I am leaving. Just like you trust God, trust that I am leaving for good reason. In our history, the Temple has been God's house. It has many dwelling places within it. More recently, I have been God's house, His only dwelling place. But I am leaving so that there might be many dwelling places again (but in an even better way!). From now on, the dwelling places won't be empty rooms... but people, full of the Spirit! You will be God's home just like I have been. And I, being God and all, will be with you like never before!"

Now, I know that is a bit too 'Eugene Peterson" for Steve's liking probably, but I just want to check to see if I'm understanding your interpretation correctly. Thanks

[TK]

Eugene Peterson-ish indeed, but very well done!

I am always about half scared to explain to people this interpretation of John 14.

People want their mansions!

TK

[mattrose]

I had another thought...

Moses death probably seemed terrible, but it came before they entered the Promised Land
Maybe Jesus (sometimes seemingly presented as the new Moses, making a new Israel) is comforting them in the terribleness of His death by talking about how they are about to enter into the Promised Land too (Pentecost). But even better, since (unlike Moses), Jesus (since He's also the fulfillment of Joshua) will be joining them.

But I am typing faster than I'm thinking

[steve]

Matt,

Your paraphrase is a pretty good representation of the thought, as I see it. Not differing in meaning from your presentation, but giving my own paraphrase, I might render it as follows:

Don't worry that I am leaving. When I have gone to my Father, I will come to you through my Spirit. My Father and I live in His house—which you have known previously as the single dwelling place that Solomon built in Jerusalem. But, from now on, my Father's house is comprised of a great number of dwelling places. He and I dwell in each one who loves me and keeps my commandments. As living stones, collectively, these people comprise a temple not made with hands. Each of you has his own place in this temple, which I will be preparing when I depart. This preparation requires my being established as the Head of a new body, the Foundation and Headstone of the new temple. When I have returned to my Father, He and I will be able to come, in the person of the Spirit of Truth, to dwell in you—placing you in your proper place as part of this earthly habitation. —John 14:1-2 (explained in light of verses 18 and 23).

I have to say that verse three might be about the second coming—or, alternatively, about Pentecost. F.F.Bruce says that, in the upper room discourse, the difference between the coming of the Spirit and the second coming of Christ seems almost to vanish. The more I look at the whole of chapter 14, the less reason I find to see the second coming there—though I believe the second coming is found elsewhere in scripture, of course!

[Paidion]

The people of all the churches in the circle of fellowship of which my local church is part, have been taught by our leading brethren an understanding of John 14 which is very close or identical to that which you expressed, Steve.

[steve]

I am glad to hear this. It is not often that I encounter such an opinion about the passage.