Does faith come by hearing or by reading?

verbatim
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Re: Does faith come by hearing or by reading?

Post by verbatim » Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:38 am

Hello dorianleigh greetings,
Do we love the Bible more than the Lord? Do we focus more upon what we read, than what the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts? (quote from Opening Post)

virgilio wrote:
I respect the Scripture as a source of wisdom and knowledge in learning about God because without the Bible we has no foundation of belief. It is easy to believed that there is God but without the Scripture and the saints or our forefather maybe we shall be full ignorant if what is God.

dorianleigh wrote:
John 16:13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
Thanks for sharing. I agree with you in terms of the Bible renewing our minds and yet I would add that "hearing" is referring to us listening to the Spirit of truth speak to our hearts. If the Bible alone had the power to change lives, satan would have changed years ago, as he knows and uses Scripture for his purposes. I've know many people who claim to be Christians and who read the Bible very day, but their hearts are not open to "hearing" the Spirit of truth. How do I know this? The Bible tells us that we can know a true Christian by their love.
Stan would never change because he was a rebel against God from the beginning and want to exalt himself like god. Yes satan uses bible to not to learn but to deceives man of God. Ff. is verse for him (satan):

John 8:44 Ye are of the devil, as [your] father, and ye desire to do the lusts of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks falsehood, he speaks of what is his own; for he is a liar and its father:

Dorianleigh wrote:
“My desire is to know God, rather than knowing about Him.”

virgilio wrote:
Please do not be offended, me think that it is impossible to know God, without knowing him. In regard to hearing the Holy Spirit we could not know that there is Holy Spirit if the Bible didn’t teaches this so Paul asked them if they had received the Holy Ghost since they believed and the people answered that they have not such heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. without bible reference how could you know that there are Holy Spirit?
We joined here in Narrow Path Forum not to teach but share and learn with our brother and sister looking for regeneration and spiritual growth till we reach our maturity in Christ.
Romans11:25 For I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, that ye may not be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the nations be come in;
Romans 12:16 Have the same respect one for another, not minding high things, but going along with the lowly: be not wise in your own eyes:
Hope this help.
Thank you and God bless.
virgilio
__________________
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! Isaiah 52:7

dorianleigh
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Re: Does faith come by hearing or by reading?

Post by dorianleigh » Fri Sep 30, 2011 1:13 pm

Thanks for sharing your perspectives! The Lord speaks to each of our hearts in a personal way, so it is great to read what He is saying to other believers!

I would only add one idea and that is we can experience the Holy Spirit without the Bible as this is happening today in other countries where the Bible is not allowed. It is fascinating to see what the Lord is doing through His Spirit as these people are experiencing The Holy Spirit doesn't need the Bible to speak to hearts. If you research what is going on in these countries today where there is no freedom to be a believer, you will see how amazing the Lord's Spirit is moving amongst persecution and no Bibles. We don't realize how blessed we are in this country to have the extra advantage of the ability to read a physical book that our physical senses to see and touch, however, it seems that in the countries where they are suffering the most persecution, their faith is so much stronger than our country.

Have a blessed day, and remember to tell someone about Jesus........

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jriccitelli
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Re: Does faith come by hearing or by reading?

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:27 pm

As this subject itself is on my mind everyday, it will be hard to limit a short answer. And from Dorians writing I can see she is educated and loving so I hope you do not take my responses here as argument, but since the 'question' is posted on this bible forum ...
I have grown to admire the responses by others on this forum and it encourages me that others care about correct doctrine, in a positive way, for the goal of accurately explaining and reasoning the truth, logic, purpose and hope contained in the Gospel. In Spirit and in truth, and His Word is truth and His Words are Spirit.

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Re: Does faith come by hearing or by reading?

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:41 pm

We can’t 'assume' all believers in persecuted countries have 'greater' faith, certainly great, but sadly it quickly comes to ruin without knowledge. People in oppressed eastern civilizations are seeking Gods Word and most find scripture a 'God send' and desperately ask for more scripture. Why are there no Bibles in their countries already? Because the Devil purposely wants to eliminate Gods Word, and has, that’s what the devil does. Bibles are illegal and destroyed; the Bible is even hated by some, why? Why did the Catholic Church burn and put to death Bible translators? Why did the Catholic bishops teach only in Latin for hundreds of years? Why have Russian and Chinese Govts. outlawed Bibles? Ans. So Satan can kill and destroy and keep millions in the dark, this is the Devils purpose; to deny people Gods word and downplay the Bibles importance. Why do so many cults disdain open Bible discussion and implant their own teachings?
I have been to too many funerals not to be grieved, because I know that this person lived their whole life and rarely ever cracked a Bible to learn of the God they will someday meet, of His judgments and punishment for sin, of His Holiness and disdain for pride selfishness and worldliness. They could have read of His Law to Moses, His punishment of Israel, His word concerning Moab and Tyre. His Words to Abraham, and to Lot. They never read His Words to David and Solomon, Gideon, Job and John the Baptist. And the words given to Hilikiah, Huldah, Asaph, Rahab and the woman at the well. I fear they never read or understood the words given to Peter and John concerning the Grace 'Who came and dwelt among us'. As Jesus 'the Word' said to some there "Have I been with you so long yet you do not know me?" Bibles are gathering dust everywhere while the TV is on for hours, in more rooms than one. The problem is certainly not 'too much Biblical reading' and understanding, there is a horrible deficit and lack of Biblical understanding in our world, and especially among the 'Church'. My goal is to help encourage people to seek God and his Word. People who are 'following their hearts' without wisdom seem to me to be in 'grave' danger.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Does faith come by hearing or by reading?

Post by jriccitelli » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:28 am

Q. "Do we focus more upon what we read, than what the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts?” One time while conversing with some Mormons, one asked me 'Does the Holy Spirit speak to you?' and I answered "Yes, He does all the time, in fact He wrote His words down, so I wouldn’t forget, it’s called the Bible." If God speaks to you it is indeed personal, but I don’t think it to wise to profess that what God told ‘me’ is for everyone. This is the purpose of the Spirit, to give us the ‘personal’ application and conviction of His word as we walk and live, God who keeps Himself ‘hidden for a reason’(Otherwise, Why does He not just make Himself visible to everyone now), God who ‘limits the revelation’ of Himself (Even Jesus was taken back to heaven) expects us to use and live by what He has ‘already’ revealed. And to whom uses the ‘talent’ given, and sows the good seed, ‘more shall be given’. The importance in knowing Gods Word is overstated by most every Biblical Prophet, especially Jesus; ‘The Words that I speak to you are spirit and are life’ (John 6:63) Peter answers; ‘Lord to whom shall we go, you have the Words of eternal life’ It is His Word that is our substance, as was the Manna that came down from heaven.
I think it is very rare we get personal revelation knowledge. Most of us ‘feel, sense’ or have a conviction that God is telling us something, and sometimes daily, but most people I know can only account for 0 to 5 instances of 'hearing' God speak to them. So then since ‘rarely does anyone hear Gods audible voice’ and most all Christians ‘feel’ Gods leading and conviction, how do we know it is God speaking to us? It is hard to tell our thoughts from the Spirits leading if we are not familiar with His voice and His character. It is very dangerous to think our conscience is Gods Spirit, and very dangerous to assume someone is receiving messages in Gods name without evidence or proof. The Holy Spirit seems more willing to work with His ‘disciples’ than those ‘not’ willing to learn. Much pain can result from thinking we are 'hearing' from God without verification. Gods written Word is the foundation and test for all that comes to our mind, and without 'knowing scripture' many are following their own heart without knowing it, thus deceiving themselves.
Jesus did not reprimand the Devil and the Pharisees for ‘having a great knowledge of scripture’. Otherwise God would have to reprimand Isaiah, Ezra, David, Paul, and Jesus. Jesus knew that the intentions of some Pharisees were evil, and that their distortion and twisting of scripture was evil. Jesus thus corrected the Devil ‘with Old testament scripture’. If we do not 'know' what it says, in context, we can not discern a misapplication of Gods Word. And thus millions have been deceived and are lied to 'daily' because of their ignorance of scripture, when as you say, it is available to most all the western world in abundance, yet people will still spend their free time reading 'People' magazine, watching 'Oprah', 'Sex in the city' and most of my friends will watch Football all weekend for the next 3 months, instead of ever opening the Bible.
Last edited by jriccitelli on Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does faith come by hearing or by reading?

Post by jriccitelli » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:41 am

Since God knows all about everything, why read anything, why go to school, if we have the Holy Spirit to teach us all we need to ‘know’, why not walk into the operating room and start helping out the doctors, go to the science lab and start putting together some medicine. Why should God limit His information and wisdom just to the Bible? There is no reason therefore to read ‘any’ book, why do I read History and Science books? Why do I bother with newspapers and manuals, why do I and my wife still attend classes for work, I should be expecting the Holy Spirit to give me the knowledge, right?
God gives me the ‘will’ to learn, the ‘desire’ to improve my understanding, the ability to ‘discern’ A from B, positive from neutral, right from wrong. Reading and learning ‘is the work of the Holy Spirit’. He has given us this gift for good. God rewards those who pusue knowledge, the whole book of Proverbs attest to this fact.
I think God has revealed only ‘so much’ information to man (Deut.29:29), but He will guide us ‘in’ and ‘to’ the truth He has already revealed. Thinking, using and expanding our intellect are aspects of man God has intended us to use, especially the pursuit of the Knowledge (and knowing) of Him. In scripture the profuse number of the words ‘know, knowledge, learn, understand, wisdom’ are commonly used with ‘commands’ to learn, not just suggestions. Since only a limited amount of Theological information about God is revealed in nature, the Bible then is the method He Himself has chosen, since sin has separated us from Him (Isaiah 53:9) There has always been a ‘mediator’ between us and God. His prophets and messengers are His Word, not us, (That is why Jesus is the Word).
My wife is a good example, she often is talking and sharing with believers and others, and she will pull a biblical example or verse out of her memory (or by the Spirits leading) and apply it for people and situations that I never would have been able to. Her gift is counsel, yet she can use an obscure passage from Judges, Joshua or Malachi in contexts that console, have application and have a listener yearning for more, of God. If my wife did not study her bible so often she may not have been as able, effective, or biblically sound in her advice. Go tell it on the mountain! (And in the valleys)

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Re: Does faith come by hearing or by reading?

Post by backwoodsman » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:49 pm

jriccitelli, thank you for taking the time to type all this in. I think you've explained it extremely well, and certainly a lot more effectively than I could've.

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Re: Does faith come by hearing or by reading?

Post by dorianleigh » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:21 pm

jriccitelli,

Thank you for sharing your perspective. We are all enriched by having different perspectives as the Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts according to where we are at in our walk, our culture, our experiences, etc. What you shared is as real to you as what any other person shares. That is the reason the Bible is just another book that satan uses people to argue about, UNLESS we have the Holy Spirit to speak to each of our hearts as we need for our own personal growth.

That is the reason there can be many interpretations about Scripture that are ALL correct as the Holy Spirit speaks to each of our hearts in a personal way. This is the reason the Bible says that some of us don't have any spiritual teeth and therefore can only interpret certain Scriptures according to the "milk" we can drink. When we have developed teeth, we can sink our teeth into the meat and go deeper. We can't tell another believer that they are wrong in what the Holy Spirit is telling them about Scripture, or we are playing God in their life and judging them, which is exactly what living by the law is all about.

The grace of Jesus allows us the freedom to have our own perspective according to what the Spirit speaks to each of our hearts. If any human decides that they can dictate what the Holy Spirit is speaking to our heart, they are severely deceived and their need to control the thoughts and beliefs of others will be judged by the Lord. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom, not control.....

Lord bless you brother and again, I appreciate your perspective and what you believe the Holy Spirit is speaking to your heart at this season of your spiritual maturity. We are all at different places in our walk and have our own personal relationship with Jesus. If we can embrace each other's differences and perspectives and love each other through it, we will grow in unity and power to reach the lost.

I would love to see believers compete for how many unbelievers they have shared Jesus with each day, rather than who has the right perspective about an irrelevant issue........

In Jesus love.....

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Re: Does faith come by hearing or by reading?

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:03 am

Dorian you must be a intelligent thoughtful person but it seems that some of your comments are cloaked, because you contradict some of your own statements. I agree with you that many people go far to the extreme in studying the Bible without desiring a relationship with God (and with others), and the other extreme is to willfully ignore Gods Word for what ever reasons.
I think that anyone who listens to Steves talk show or Lectures quickly observe the kind considerate (etc.) manner that Steve communicates with listeners, and I think most posters here are drawn to the graceful manner that Steve presents in his lectures and teaching. I am also drawn to the approach that Scripture is truth and can be searched out and discovered by sincere people desiring meaning and hope. Many people are seeking logical intelligent answers from God 'and' Scripture, and I think Steve models what the Bible asks of a teacher and a disciple of Jesus. Solomon says throughout Proverbs:
Hear, O sons, the instruction of a father, And give attention that you may gain understanding, 2 For I give you sound teaching; Do not abandon my instruction...Acquire wisdom! Acquire understanding! 6 Do not forget nor turn away from the words of my mouth."Do not forsake her, and she will guard you; Love her, and she will watch over you.
(Proverbs 4:1-6)

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steve
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Re: Does faith come by hearing or by reading?

Post by steve » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:38 pm

Dorian,

I would love to have left your post responding to jriccitelli up, but you are not being honest, and I have mentioned that you have to answer a few questions before you post any more here. The post I just deleted had nothing new in it...just the same things that you have said at least half a dozen times in previous posts (which have not been deleted). I am not threatened by your remarks, but you are not permitted to post here any more until you answer the questions you have been asked.

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