The Best “Proof Text” of Correction After Judgment

[mattrose]

Matt & Homer,

Is it Christ's goal to save every person? If so, would you say that a batting average of less than 0.100 (?) is very good? How successful is Christ in your view in saving the world?

Todd

Christ is 100% successful in saving the entire body He purposes to save

[steve7150]

Christ is 100% successful in saving the entire body He purposes to save









Good because Paul said it's God's will that none should perish and Jesus does the will of his Father.

[mattrose]

God doesn't get everything He wants. He does everything He promises.

[Todd]

Christ is 100% successful in saving the entire body He purposes to save

This sounds like Calvinism to me. If only a few are saved, yet you say he 100% successful?

I believe He is 100%: the entirety of mankind.

Todd

[mattrose]

Christ is 100% successful in saving the entire body He purposes to save

This sounds like Calvinism to me. If only a few are saved, yet you say he 100% successful?

I believe He is 100%: the entirety of mankind.

Todd

Calvinism still thinks in individualistic terms. What I am saying thinks in corporate terms.

But, though I am not a Calvinist, I don't consider sounding like one to be a necessarily bad thing every time!

I am aware of your belief. I hope it is true! But I presently don't find it very persuasive. Indeed, of the 3 views of hell I am not even sure I find universal reconcilation more persuasive than eternal torment as far as overall arguments go. And I consider both of them to be quite a bit behind the conditional immortality view.

[Homer]

Paidion wrote:

Homer wrote:
Why not use the plain, unambiguous statements of Jesus to determine what the word might mean? Such as:

Matthew 13:30
New King James Version (NKJV)

30. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

(Paidion)
Because Jesus didn't use the word in this verse, nor did He use it in any part of the parable. To discover the meaning of the word, you need to examine passages where it is used.

Paidion, you are an intelligent man and you can do better than this. This is simply an evasion of the issue. You should have said "To discover what Peter meant when he used the word". In your OP, where you claim to present the best "proof text" for universalism; you admit the word has two possible meanings, one which could support your position and one that could refute it. The word could mean pruning (correction?) or punishment. When Jesus spoke of the harvest, and the disposition of the tares, He left no room for rehabilition of the tares. They were destroyed. If Peter is not contradicting Jesus, how can you possibly believe Peter meant correction rather than punishment?

And the noun form of the verb was spoken of by both Josephus and Philo as meaning "divine retribution".

(Paidion)
How do you know that ?

From an article on the meaning of kolasis and kolazo in the NIV Theological Dictionary of New Testament Words. The exact statement is as follows:

"Both Josephus and Philo speak of kolasis as divine retribution."

In your OP you claimed the subject passage as the very best proof of your position. How about giving us your top ten texts. I would very much like to see that. I think we will see that you have a very weak scriptural case.

[steve7150]

God doesn't get everything He wants. He does everything He promises







We have God's will verses man's will, which will prevail in the end?

"God declares the end from the beginning and from ancient times things NOT YET DONE" Isa 46.9-10

"and i WILL fulfill my intention" Isa 46.10

"I have spoken and i will bring it to pass, I have planned and I will do it" Isa 46.11


There are many other verses re God's will but IMO there is no doubt God's will is unstopable and man's will is about as powerful as Paul taking a few seconds to change his mind about Christ on the road to Damascus. Jesus prayed that God's will be done, would God not answer Jesus prayer?
God's will is that none should perish.

[steve7150]

He left no room for rehabilition of the tares








Fire can destroy or purify and in this parable Jesus did'nt mention whether their bodies are burned to a crisp or that sin might be spiritually burned out of them.
Therefore Homer we must look elsewhere for more info. Jesus tended to reveal info in increments.

[Homer]

Fire can destroy or purify and in this parable Jesus did'nt mention whether their bodies are burned to a crisp or that sin might be spiritually burned out of them.
Therefore Homer we must look elsewhere for more info. Jesus tended to reveal info in increments.

Again I ask:
What idea do you think Jesus meant to convey? And what do you think those He spoke to would have undestood Him to be saying? That the tares, though destroyed in the fire, would somehow afterward be turned into wheat?

Do you think we should understand Jesus' plain statement in light of Peter's less clear statement? Again and again we see implausable, desparate arguments by the universalist.

[steve7150]

Again I ask:
What idea do you think Jesus meant to convey? And what do you think those He spoke to would have undestood Him to be saying? That the tares, though destroyed in the fire, would somehow afterward be turned into wheat?

Do you think we should understand Jesus' plain statement in light of Peter's less clear statement? Again and again we see implausable, desparate arguments by the universalist.




I agree with you Homer that in this parable Jesus limited the teaching to the fact that the tares are going to be destroyed , just as in his teaching about the narrow gate verses the wide gate which leads to destruction. This teaching was meant to have an immediate impact but when all of scripture is considered regarding judgment a very strong case can be made that the ultimate purpose of judment is not just destruction but then restoration.
You can call CU desperate or weak or unsupported but there dozens and dozens of verses that support the fact that the ultimate plan of God is in fact restoration of his creation.