speaking in tongues

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TK
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Re: speaking in tongues

Post by TK » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:43 pm

Hi Paidion-

The JB Phillips version says that tongues are a sign for BELIEVERS. The versions you quoted states that tongues are a sign for UNBELIEVERS.

The ESV version of I Cor 14:22-25 reads:
Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers. If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds? But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
This version is confusing because 1st Paul says that tongues are a sign for unbelievers, then in the next phrase says that unbelievers will be put off by a lot of tongue speaking (which I believe to be true). That is why I think Phillips is onto something. If tongues are a sign for believers, then thr rest of the passage makes more sense.

TK

SamIam
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Re: speaking in tongues

Post by SamIam » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:53 pm

TK,

Have you considered another option.

Languages are a sign for a certain kind of unbeliever, namely the unbelieving Jew. This makes sense of Paul's citation of Isaiah 28 where the invadng armies (that speak a different language) are a sign of God's judgement. This is also consistent with the book of Acts where each time speaking in languages is mentioned, Jews are in the room, and they are being rebuked or instructed.

The outsider of 1 Corinthians 14:23 may be a pagan off the streets of Corinth who would see no sign value in people worshiping God in some language other than Hebrew. Such a person would consider a meeting conducted in multiple languages pointless at best, crazy at worst. What's more, since he doesn't understand what is said, he is not called to repentance as he should be.

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Paidion
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Re: speaking in tongues

Post by Paidion » Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:11 am

Greetings, TK. Apparently I experienced a senior moment in not reading the basis difference between Philips and the other translations!

In any case, I looked it up in Westcott-Hort Greek New Testament, and it is definitely stated as in the other translations.

Then I looked at my book of all extant texts dating prior to 300 A.D. I found the passage in question in papyrus 46 which has been dated around 150 A.D. and it also agrees with the other translations.

Nevertheless, I can see why you and Mr. Philips see it as making sense by reversing "believers" and "unbelievers" in view of the context. Yet, since to the best of my searches, there is no manuscript which puts it as Philips does, it would seem dishonest to translate it that way simply because it seems more logical.
Paidion

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TK
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Re: speaking in tongues

Post by TK » Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:32 am

Is it possible that Paul made a slip of the pen, and not the copyists? I know that opens up another can of worms, but in this passage I wonder.

TK

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steve
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Re: speaking in tongues

Post by steve » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:37 pm

With reference to some of the points made in the above discussion, I would like to state some of my thoughts:

1. Tongues may always be human languages (though that cannot be established from scripture, since the word "languages" would be the same term, whether modified by "of men" or by "of angels");

2. In any case, the "gift" of "tongues" clearly refers to the speaking of languages unlearned by the speaker (1 Cor.14:14), as it is a supernatural phenomenon (or else how would it serve as a "sign" to anyone, and why would it require that the speaker himself should "pray that he might interpret" his own utterance? 1 Cor. 14:13, 22);

3. There is no record of anyone ever preaching the gospel in "tongues" (Greek was adequate for that purpose throughout the empire)—nor is there any suggestion that this was one of the purposes of the gift of tongues. The speaker in tongues is not preaching, nor even speaking to men at all, but to God (1 Cor.14:2 — which is, no doubt, why it is referred to as "praying" and "blessing" or "thanking" God 1 Cor.14:14, 16);

4. Paul certainly makes some kind of distinction between various uses of tongues, in that he knows of a self-edifying function, which is useful to the speaker, even when not appropriate to utter publicly (1 Cor.14:4, 28 cf. Jude 20), and he also knows of a public function, which (when accompanied by the gift of interpretation) may edify the church (1 Cor.14:5, 26-27), or (without interpretation) may serve as a sign to unbelievers (Acts 2 / 1 Cor.14:22).

It is true that we have very little teaching given to us on this subject in scripture. However, the above points can readily be gleaned from what little is said.

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Re: speaking in tongues

Post by mattrose » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:13 pm

When I spent some time on TK's passage a couple of years ago, I wrote the following commentary:
I found vs. 20-25 especially difficult to interpret. Here are my conclusions after further investigation.

Paul says the current practice of the Corinthians is childish. I assume he means their practice of emphasizing tongues (and un-interpreted tongues at that!) over prophecy. This prioritization is foolish. He quotes Isaiah 28 to make a significant point. The Isaiah text makes clear that Isaiah had attempted to communicate with Israel on a highly elementary level of speech, so much so that the Israelites whined that it was TOO simplistic. Because they rejected Isaiah's words of discipline, God was going to send them to the Assyrians (who spoke in un-interpreted tongues) to discipline them further. This, of course, was of no help either. Paul seems to be using the Isaiah text on the Corinthians because it makes the point that un-interpreted tongues is more of a sign of judgment than blessing, its very presence is evidence that something has gone very wrong.

In v. 22, then, Paul is saying that (un-interpreted) tongues are a sign (of judgment) directed at unbelieving people. When a church is using un-interpreted tongues it is of no value to anyone but the individual speakers. Prophecy, on the other hand, is very valuable to all people. It edifies the church and has the great potential of convincing the unbelievers.

In short, if the Corinthians continue to practice un-interpreted tongues, it would be evidence of judgment, not blessing! Paul is turning their argument (we are special b/c we speak in tongues) on it's head by saying un-interpreted tongues is linked to judgment.
Even though I wrote this, I had to read it a couple of times to remember exactly what I was thinking! But I do believe it makes sense of the passage.

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Re: speaking in tongues

Post by Homer » Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:50 pm

Good explanation Matt. You wrote:
In short, if the Corinthians continue to practice un-interpreted tongues, it would be evidence of judgment, not blessing! Paul is turning their argument (we are special b/c we speak in tongues) on it's head by saying un-interpreted tongues is linked to judgment.
I had thought for some time that Paul was possibly using the word oikodomeo, translated "edify" (literally "build", "build up"), in 1 Corinthians 14:4 in a negative sense, as it is in Luke 6:49 and 1 Corinthians 8:10.

The article on oikodomeo in the TDNT says:
The positive use of oikodomeo always refers to the community. Paul uses sharp words to criticize anyone who speaks in a tongue simply to edify (oikodomei) himself or herself (1 Cor. 14:4). Edification not aimed at serving others is self-centered and pointless.
I have never been able to understand how "praying" in a tongue, where the person does not know what he is saying, could build up a person. But I can, if as you seem to suggest, it is in a negative sense. This seems to be what occurs often as seen on TV where a person will appear to speak gibberish with no interpretation or even a pause. Seems like "flashing their credentials".

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Re: speaking in tongues

Post by SamIam » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:13 pm

Paul ... knows of a self-edifying function, which is useful to the speaker, even when not appropriate to utter publicly (1 Cor.14:4, 28 cf. Jude 20)
I do not think Paul is commending the use of languages as self-edification. He emphasizes that gifts are given for the "common good" (1 Cor 12:7). Prophecy is to be prefered because it builds up others (1 Cor 14:1-3). The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speks in languages because the church is built up (1 Cor 14: 5). Paul says he will be no benefit to them if he comes to them speaking in languages (1 Cor 14:6). Praying in a language is unproductive (1 Cor 14:14) because the listener is not built up (1 Cor 14:17). Five intelligible words are to be prefered to ten thousand words in a language (1 Cor 14:19).

When Paul says "Those who speak in a language build up themselves, but those who prophesy build up the church" (1 Cor 14:4), he is not saying that it is a good thing to build up yourself. Those who speak in a language should be seen as promoting themselves rather than building up the church. All three chapters, 1 Corinthians 12,13 and 14 are warning against self-promotion.

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Re: speaking in tongues

Post by steve » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:53 am

Prophecy is to be prefered because it builds up others (1 Cor 14:1-3). The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speks in languages because the church is built up (1 Cor 14: 5). Paul says he will be no benefit to them if he comes to them speaking in languages (1 Cor 14:6). Praying in a language is unproductive (1 Cor 14:14) because the listener is not built up (1 Cor 14:17). Five intelligible words are to be prefered to ten thousand words in a language (1 Cor 14:19).
All of the points made above ignore the context of the cited references:

Prophecy is to be prefered because it builds up others (1 Cor 14:1-3). The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in languages because the church is built up (1 Cor 14: 5).

Why leave out the exception that Paul adds—"unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edification" ???? Such an omission seems like an instance of ignoring context in order to make a point that otherwise cannot be convincingly or validly made.

Five intelligible words are to be prefered to ten thousand words in a language (1 Cor 14:19).

One can only make an error this glaring when one is trolling for proof texts instead of reading the author's flow of thought. Was it accidental or deliberate that you omitted Paul's all important phrase, "yet in the church..." If one would only read the immediate context preceding the "yet," he would see that Paul, outside the church, speaks in tongues more than they all do. It would take a very poor reader to fail to notice that Paul is contrasting what he believes to be appropriate outside the church with what he believes should happen inside the church. Since you are arguing against the legitimacy of tongue-speaking devotionally (that is, privately) for purposes of self-edification, it would be more helpful if you could find a verse somewhere that has bearing on your thesis, rather than limiting your citations to verses about an entirely different subject—viz., that of church decorum.

Paul says he will be no benefit to them if he comes to them speaking in languages (1 Cor 14:6). Praying in a language is unproductive (1 Cor 14:14) because the listener is not built up (1 Cor 14:17).

Why leave out Paul's main point in this section, namely, that the speaker in tongues must not speak unless an interpretation can accompany the utterance—even recommending that the speaker pray for the divinely-bestowed ability to interpret his own utterance (v.13)? If it is impossible to make a given point without neglecting key verses that define the author's intentions, it would be better (more honest, at least) to adopt a different position that allows all of Paul's testimony to be heard.
When Paul says "Those who speak in a language build up themselves, but those who prophesy build up the church" (1 Cor 14:4), he is not saying that it is a good thing to build up yourself. Those who speak in a language should be seen as promoting themselves rather than building up the church. All three chapters, 1 Corinthians 12,13 and 14 are warning against self-promotion.


Self-edification is not the same thing as self-promotion.

Homer has made reference to using the word edify "in a negative sense," giving Luke 6:49 as an example of such a usage. But this verse does not actually give the word a negative sense. In Luke 6:49, the building of a house is not regarded as a negative thing, which is why the exact same activity is spoken of positively in the previous verse. Jesus does not criticize the activity of building houses (which He seems to treat as if it is something everyone must do). What He criticizes is the failure to first do adequate site preparation—something that is to be done before the building begins. There is no stigma implied in either man's building a house.

Homer has suggested that he finds a case of "negative" edification in 1 Corinthians 14:4. However, if edification can indeed carry a "negative" sense, it would be strange to find such a sense in a verse which uses the same word in a clearly positive sense (in the phrase, "edifies the church").

Since it is not wrong to do things that edify the church, it cannot be wrong for the church, or any member thereof (including yourself), to be edified. If you spend time reading and meditating on the Bible, you are likely to be edified by your activity. You are edifying yourself. Similarly, if you sing or listen to spiritual songs, or converse with godly mentors, or spend time praying in your native tongue, you will be in danger of being edified (or "improved") spiritually.

According to Paul, the same is true of speaking in tongues as is true of these other edifying activities. He does not ever suggest that this is to be avoided, except in the church gatherings, where the triage imposed by limits upon group-time would dictate the desirability of pursuing only activities that can edify more than one person present. Edify yourself on your own time! In the group gathering, edify others!

Apart from church gatherings, we should do all that we can to edify (or build up) ourselves spiritually. Jude specifically commands us to build ourselves up—and even identifies "praying in the Holy Spirit" as the means of doing so. Why any Christian would suggest that this is an unworthy goal I can't imagine. Is it being suggested that we, instead, should do things that we do NOT find personally edifying?

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Re: speaking in tongues

Post by verbatim » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:03 am

Hi all,
I made a post # 20 last August 7 in this thread and I think it was overlooked by all members who make post here. Maybe it was not important and every one
dare to answer it or maybe because it was not either address to a particular member. I made this appeal to all to let me know if what is your thought about this kind of speaking in tongues in which I think is very important in NEW COVENANT.

Thank you and God bless.
verbatim
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