Satan created as the "tester"

[steve]

What are our options?

Did God create Satan?
Yes.

Does the Bible say anywhere that the devil was ever different from what he is now?
No.

Does God have absolute power over Satan?
Yes.

If God had no use for Satan, would He have the ability to destroy him at any time...even before the creation of man?
Yes.

Would not this expedient have prevented the fall of man?
Yes, apparently.

Did God know the serpent was in the garden when he placed the man and the woman there?
Yes.

Could God have placed the couple in a different location, had He wished, far from the serpent?
Yes.

Could God have forewarned the couple to beware of the serpent, had He wished to do so?
Yes.

So God deliberately placed Adam and Eve in a garden with a dangerous serpent, knowing they would be tested, and did nothing to warn or intervene? Yes

So, mustn't we conclude that God wished for the couple to face this temptation?
Yes.

Did the Holy Spirit lead Jesus into the wilderness to be tested by the devil (Matt.4:1)?
Yes.

Did Jesus tell the church to expect to be tested by the devil (Rev.2:10)?
Yes.

Does the Bible teach that God tests the hearts of men?
Yes.

Is not Satan called "the tempter" (1 Thess. 3:5), meaning "the tester"?
Yes.

Wouldn't this suggest that Satan serves an instrumental role in God's testing of men's hearts?
Yes, apparently.

If Satan plays this role, is it likely that this is God's reason for keeping him around, rather than destroying him?
Yes.

If God had use for a tester to fill this role, is there any reason that He would not have felt the liberty to create one for the job?
????

[steve7150]

If God DID create Satan for this purpose, and Satan does the job that God assigned to him, then at the end of the age should not God tell him "well done, good and faithful servant" as opposed to tossing him in the Lake of Fire, which is apparently reserved for the devil and his angels? Could (or should) Satan have said, sorry God, I know you created me to test men but I just can't do that." Then what?



Fire can destroy or transform , so maybe Satan will be transformed into a good angel when the need for him to be "the Adversary" is completed.

[Paidion]

Thank you TK, for your insightful questions.

Personally, I see Satan as in tradition, as being created as Lucifer (light), and created with free will as were all the other angels. I think Satan chose to rebel against God, as did a number of other angels who supported him, and consequently became demons. We read in the Bible of "Satan and his angels".

Adam and Eve were also created with free wills, and they too, chose to rebel against God.

[TK]

Steve-

I agree that all your questions have a "yes" answer. The only issue(for me) is whether God originally created him for the purpose of testing man, or whether God created him for another purpose that satan rebelled against. If the latter, God in his infinite wisdom certainly at that point could have decided to allow satan to test His creation. This seems to fit the facts and language of the Bible as it pertains to satan better than the idea that God's original purpose for him was to be an evil and sadistic tempter and destroyer.

In other words, God could have used satan after he rebelled, but he didnt have to be "happy" about who satan was. He was a rebel, after all. If he originally created satan for the sole purpose of being incredibly nasty, I dont see how God could be "upset" with satan in any sense at all.

Maybe I am just not getting how God could be displeased with a created being that is doing exactly what God wants it to do.

TK

[mikew]

I have basically figured that Satan was created for the purpose of attracting evil to himself. He was made to expose that which is evil. Such purpose would also be similar to being the tempter since the tempter would expose evil.

If Satan is seen to exist to attract evil, then we can see in Rev 20 that God was going to release Satan in order to do some final cleanup of evil from the midst of the earth. In this interpretation of Rev 20, we can see some of God's logic in releasing Satan; Otherwise it would seem ironic that God had bound Satan only for Satan to 'escape.'

As to the punishment of Satan, we can see a similar abuse of power described in Isaiah 10.

Isa 10:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that, when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
Isa 10:13 For he hath said, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I have understanding: and I have removed the bounds of the peoples, and have robbed their treasures, and like a valiant man I have brought down them that sit on thrones:
Isa 10:14 and my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the peoples; and as one gathereth eggs that are forsaken, have I gathered all the earth: and there was none that moved the wing, or that opened the mouth, or chirped.
Isa 10:15 Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? shall the saw magnify itself against him that wieldeth it? as if a rod should wield them that lift it up, or as if a staff should lift up him that is not wood.
Isa 10:16 Therefore will the Lord, Jehovah of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory there shall be kindled a burning like the burning of fire. (ASV)

The whole chapter should be read in order to get the context. But the gist is found in the verses just quoted. Superficially, the passage suggests that Assyria was raised up to bring forth God's cleansing but Assyria overstepped the boundaries of its design and became boastful and sought too much power.
So we could see that Satan also had overstepped his bounds in trying to attract evil to himself. For example, it may have been improper for Satan to tempt Jesus.

[psimmond]

It does seem from the language of Jesus and the apostles that Satan is not just a servant of God. I believe that God can and sometimes does use Satan but there seems to be a mutual hate relationship there--murderer, liar, lion seeking to devour, sinner, eternal fire prepared for him and his angels.

Although some of the verses used to support the traditional view may actually be referring to human kings rather than Satan, I suspect the traditional view may be close to reality.

In his talk on this subject, Steve asked about the phrase "from the beginning" (Satan was a liar/sinner/murderer from the beginning.) I wonder if "from the beginning" might mean from the time that Satan first came on the scene, not the creature that God created but Satan the evil one. It might be like saying the Incredible Hulk was huge and green from the beginning while knowing that Bruce Banner was never huge and green.

I also liked Paidion's point about "...the devil and his angels." (Mat 25:41) This seems to suggest that the fallen angels belong to the devil or are under his authority. Of course, this jives with the traditional view.

In a different post I expressed my confusion about how a single devil can tempt Christians all over the world. I don't know of anything in the Bible suggesting that the devil can be in more than one place at a time. Therefore I wonder if perhaps when Paul tells us to stand against the schemes of the devil and James tells us to resist the devil, what we're actually standing against and resisting is "the devil and his angels."

[steve7150]

In his talk on this subject, Steve asked about the phrase "from the beginning" (Satan was a liar/sinner/murderer from the beginning.) I wonder if "from the beginning" might mean from the time that Satan first came on the scene, not the creature that God created but Satan the evil one. It might be like saying the Incredible Hulk was huge and green from the beginning while knowing that Bruce Banner was never huge and green.




Satan was the Serpent in the garden and it sounds like God made him that way,
"Now the Serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made" Gen 3.1 and ,
"By His Spirit he has garnished the heavens , his hand has formed the crooked serpent" Job 26.13 (BTW the hebrew word "crooked" means "fugitive".

[psimmond]

Interesting point steve7150. The serpent (singular) was more subtle/crafty than any other beast. Does this mean all of the serpents that God created were this way or just this one particular serpent?

Why was the serpent more subtle/crafty than any other beast? Did God make him this way, did he become this way over time, or was he this way simply because Satan was in him?

Did Satan "use" this creature perhaps by entering into it like the demons entered into the pigs or like he entered into Judas (Luke 22:3)? If so, did Satan choose to "use" the serpent because the other creatures wouldn't suit his purpose, i.e. they weren't subtle/crafty enough? Although Revelation refers to Satan as a serpent, the rest of scripture doesn't make it sound like Satan is a serpent crawling about on his belly. This makes me think that perhaps Satan did choose to enter into a serpent because this offered him the best chance of deceiving Eve.

Because the serpent deceived Eve, God punished him by making him crawl on his belly. Since many serpents exist today it seems safe to assume God created more than one serpent. Since all serpents crawl on their bellies, it would seem that God punished all sepents for the act of this one serpent. Why?

The fact that God punished the serpent (and apparently all serpents) seems to suggest that the serpent was not just a victim here but that he participated in the deception of Eve.

Serpents scare me but they don't impress me as being very crafty or even very intellegent. I wonder if all these years of eating dust has dumbed them down.

[steve7150]

Why was the serpent more subtle/crafty than any other beast? Did God make him this way, did he become this way over time, or was he this way simply because Satan was in him?






In Col 1.16 Paul says Jesus created all things including "principalities and powers" which are wicked powers , which would have Satan as the head. Paul also said Satan can disguish himself as an angel of light so i think we can deduce he could also appear as a Serpent. If this was the case i think that would answer the origin of this Serpent and where he got his craftiness, he got it from God.

[psimmond]

You said "In Col 1.16 Paul says Jesus created all things including "principalities and powers" which are wicked powers."
But I don't see any reason to interpret "principalities and powers" as being wicked in this context. When I read this passage it sounds to me as though it's simply saying that all positions of authority (held by angels and humans) are created or established by God.

You may be right in saying that Satan could have appeared as a serpent, but if it was Satan in disguise and not a real serpent why do all serpents crawl on their bellies in the dust? if God made them that way on the 6th day of creation, how should we understand Genesis 3:14?