Is Judas in heaven or hell?

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benstenson
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Re: Is Judas in heaven or hell?

Post by benstenson » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:06 am

"ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1John 3:15)

Judas must be in hell waiting to be thrown into a lake of fire. God wants us to not only to be aware of this, but also to understand the reasons, so that we will agree with His wise judgment and have confidence in Him as a result.
"out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them" (Gen 2:19)

steve7150
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Re: Is Judas in heaven or hell?

Post by steve7150 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:25 am

ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1John 3:15)







The bible says something similar about the timid or fearful toward the end of Revelation, therefore it has to mean "unrepentent" sin. Also Jesus said anger at your brother without a cause is murder, therefore most of us at some time have been murderers.

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steve
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Re: Is Judas in heaven or hell?

Post by steve » Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:13 am

I think that Darin's comment on the previous page may not have been given sufficient consideration. In the apostle's prayer of Acts 1:25, it is very possible (I think likely) that it is saying that whomever the lot may choose will himself (as it turned out, Matthias) go to the "his [Judas'] own place"—that is, the place in the apostolic band which was once Judas' place there. This interpretation is not clearly correct, but it is entirely possible.

As for Judas' destiny, I find it hard to correlate Jesus' statement that Judas would have been better not to have been born with a theory of Judas' ending up saved...but I would like to believe the two could be reconciled.

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darinhouston
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Re: Is Judas in heaven or hell?

Post by darinhouston » Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:01 pm

steve wrote: As for Judas' destiny, I find it hard to correlate Jesus' statement that Judas would have been better not to have been born with a theory of Judas' ending up saved...but I would like to believe the two could be reconciled.
I'm not necessarily suggesting that Judas ends up being "saved." My postulation is that he may well have willingly forfeited his place in eternity to serve the Kingdom. Paul suggested in Romans his own willingness to do so (if it were possible) on behalf of his beloved Israel. I guess we'll never know this side of glory. His actions (and Christ's appointment) do seem odd to me if not purposeful.

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Suzana
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Re: Is Judas in heaven or hell?

Post by Suzana » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:52 pm

maybe Judas was throwing himself on the sword, so to speak, knowingly and that it may have been his role to play and that he sacrificed himself in a way to ensure God's plan was carried out…

I'm not necessarily suggesting that Judas ends up being "saved." My postulation is that he may well have willingly forfeited his place in eternity to serve the Kingdom. Paul suggested in Romans his own willingness to do so (if it were possible) on behalf of his beloved Israel
I would find it hard to believe that of someone who was a petty thief, (and didn't care about the poor, who were part of Israel - John 12:5).
If Judas had such a noble motive I think Jesus, having the fullness of the Spirit, would have known - scripture refers to Jesus knowing people's thoughts and hearts; if that were the case, would Jesus have stated it would have been better if Judas hadn't been born? Wouldn't he rather have some admiration for his dedication? Gratitude even, for a well-intentioned but misguided deed?

Then when Judas 'repented' and took the thirty pieces of silver back, and hanged himself, what was he repenting from? Still acting? I would have thought he'd have wanted to hang around for a bit (pun not intended!) and see some fruits of his sacrifice in the land of the living; Jesus' resurrection at least…
Personally I think it's too much of a stretch, Darin…just my opinion. :)
Suzana
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darinhouston
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Re: Is Judas in heaven or hell?

Post by darinhouston » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:24 pm

That's a good point,Suzanna. Still, I don't understand how Jesus could have appointed him, knowing this. He clearly used this, but why did the betrayer need to be one of His own? If He knew he was a thief, why didn't He say "a thief can't be my Disciple"? Or some such?

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benstenson
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Re: Is Judas in heaven or hell?

Post by benstenson » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:18 am

darinhouston wrote:I don't understand how Jesus could have appointed him, knowing this. He clearly used this, but why did the betrayer need to be one of His own? If He knew he was a thief, why didn't He say "a thief can't be my Disciple"? Or some such?
Judas was genuine at first. There are zero Old Testament prophecies about Judas. Events in Judas' life paralleled certain scriptures. Also certain scriptural principles were applied to the situation. If Judas had repented we would not think there was a single unfulfilled prediction about him. God did not need further wickedness in order to accomplish redemption. The atonement could have been accomplished even if Judas, Israel, and the whole world repented before the Lord's death. God does not require more sin in order to forgive sin that has already been committed. He did not need for there to be evil that good could come of it.

L.D. McCabe devoted a whole chapter to the case of Judas in his book "The Foreknowledge of God and Cognate Themes" (Chapter VII - Pages 47 through 64 of the PDF). He specifically addresses the concerns you are bringing up right at the beginning of the chapter and then deals with all the supposed prophecies about Judas. http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/libra ... McCabe.pdf

"Judas was sincere, when Christ chose him to the apostleship.” - John Fletcher

“Judas was at first a child of the kingdom and heard it said to him with the disciples, ‘You shall sit upon twelve thrones’ but at last he became a child of hell” - St. Chrysostom

“For both Saul and Judas were once good…Sometimes they are at first good, who afterward become and continue evil; and for this respect they are said to be written in the book of life, and blotted out of it.” - St. Ambrose

"We also see the example of the Apostle Judas who lost his salvation. Judas was a disciple of the Lord and therefore he left all to follow Jesus (Lk. 14:33). He picked up his cross (Lk. 14:27) and even loved Jesus more then his own family (Lk. 14:26). Judas was picked by Jesus specifically to cast out devils, heal, and preach (Matt 10:1-27). Judas was a friend Jesus trusted (Ps. 41:9; Jn 13:18), so Judas kept the money (Jn. 12:6; 13:29). Jesus told Judas that He was shedding His blood for him (Lk. 22:14-20), and previously said that His name was written in the Lambs book of life (Lk. 10:20). Jesus even said that Judas was one of His sheep (Matt. 10:1-4, 16), who received His truth (Matt 10:1-4, 8), who’s Father was God (Matt 10:1-4, 20), who even had a throne in Heaven upon which he would judge Israel (Matt. 19:28; Lk. 22:30). But then later we see that Judas became a devil (Jn. 6:70) and therefore it would have been better for him to have never been born (Mk. 14:21). He even began to steal money from the group (Jn. 12:6). Judas fell from his apostleship by his transgression (Acts 1:25) because He failed to do what Jesus picked him for. His name was blotted out of the book of life (Ex. 23:33; Rev. 3:5)." - Jesse Morrell
"out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them" (Gen 2:19)

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benstenson
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Re: Is Judas in heaven or hell?

Post by benstenson » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:27 am

darinhouston wrote:My postulation is that he may well have willingly forfeited his place in eternity to serve the Kingdom.
No good man would question God's righteousness in pardoning Judas if he had acted so nobly. God would have no obligation to punish Judas if this were the case. It seems to me like that idea becomes self-contradictory as a result.

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Paidion
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Re: Is Judas in heaven or hell?

Post by Paidion » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:01 pm

Steve 7150 wrote:However Jesus said it would have been better if Judas was never born which to me is a stumbling block against believing CU.
Steve, please consider the following translation:

Indeed, the son of man is going away just as it has been written concerning him. But woe to the person through whom the son of man is being given over. Good it was for him if that person had not been conceived.

It has been assumed that the red word "him" refers to "the person through whom the son of man is being given over". As a matter of fact many translations render it in such a way that no other understanding is possible. But if that is the correct reading, then why would Matthew have written "Good it was for him if that person had not been conceived"? Wouldn't he have written "Good it was for him if he had not been conceived"? I am suggesting that the red "him" refers to "the son of man". It would have been good for the son of man if Judas had not been conceived, in the sense that He would not have had to endure the cross. It may have been a moment for our Lord, such as the one where He prayed to the Father, "If it is possible, let this cup pass from me!"

In Greek, the parallel passage in Mark 14:21 is worded the same way.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: Is Judas in heaven or hell?

Post by Homer » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:44 am

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
It would have been good for the son of man if Judas had not been conceived, in the sense that He would not have had to endure the cross. It may have been a moment for our Lord, such as the one where He prayed to the Father, "If it is possible, let this cup pass from me!"
So you are saying God's plan would have been foiled without Judas involvement?

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