The Book of Enoch in the ancient LXX and Qumran Tanakh

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charleswest
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Re: The Book of Enoch in the ancient LXX and Qumran Tanakh

Post by charleswest » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:23 pm

brody196 wrote:Okie dokie...Lets all assume that the "sons of God' in Genesis 6 were fallen angels and those angels mated with humans to create offspring.....Does that mean that the same phenomenon happens today?? If so, how would you recognize them?

What are the implications of such a doctrine? I have a short list of questions that I would like answered by those of you who believe that fallen angels could/do mate with humans and create genuine offspring.

Does this phenomenon happen today?

How would you recognize them?

What would happen to a Christian if she accidentally married one?

Should we preach the gospel to those whom we have identified as such?

What is the criteria for figuring out that one is the offspring of a fallen angel?
>>>>>>>>>> Does this phenomenon happen today?
Some believe this scripture implies that it will happen again.
"But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." Matt24:37
(The days of Noah included the Sons of God taking to wife the daughters of men)

>>>>>>>>>>> How would you recognize them?
"...to another discerning of spirits." 1 Cor 12:10

>>>>>>>>>> What would happen to a Christian if she accidentally married one?
I'm not sure that the words "Christian" and "accidentally" fit well together. :)

>>>>>>>>>> Should we preach the gospel to those whom we have identified as such?
It would seem so. "And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." Mark 16:15

>>>>>>>>>> What is the criteria for figuring out that one is the offspring of a fallen angel?
How about this?
"and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God...." 1John 4:1-3
“I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views... ” Abraham Lincoln. Excerpt from a letter to Horace Greeley. 22 August 1862
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Be Blessed. We Are Loved...
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Re: The Book of Enoch in the ancient LXX and Qumran Tanakh

Post by steve » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:47 pm

>>>>>>>>>> Does this phenomenon happen today?
Some believe this scripture implies that it will happen again.
"But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." Matt24:37
(The days of Noah included the Sons of God taking to wife the daughters of men)
Jesus did not say that anything abnormal in the state of society in Noah's day would resemble human society in the last days. Taking the passages in Matthew 24 and Luke 17, we can make a complete list of the features in which the two ages would resemble each other, namely, people would be 1) getting married, 2) Eating and drinking 3) buying and selling. As anyone can see, there is nothing particularly sinister about any of these activities, and they are, in fact, activities common to all people of every age (even good people).

If Jesus wished to suggest that there would be special, evil things going on in the end of time, He did not pick a very good list of activities to indicate this thought. Why did He not say, "They will be raping, and pillaging, and murdering, and worshipping demons"? These things were, no doubt, happening in the days of Noah (as well as at almost every era in human history, including our own). However, these were not the kind of activities that Jesus wished to underscore. His point was that, in the days of Noah, even though the devastating judgment of God was impending, the people thoughtlessly went about their everyday, normal, legitimate activities—totally oblivious to the danger they were in. It is in only this respect that Jesus drew a parallel to these people and those who will be living just prior to the final judgment.
>>>>>>>>>>> How would you recognize them?
"...to another discerning of spirits." 1 Cor 12:10
Is it your opinion that the gift of discerning of spirits, to which Paul refers, was a gift intended to discern the species of another person's parents? In the context, I would understand it considerably differently.
>>>>>>>>>> What would happen to a Christian if she accidentally married one?
I'm not sure that the words "Christian" and "accidentally" fit well together.
They don't. Accidentally marrying a bad person does not fit well with anyone. Unfortunately, though, it happens far too frequently. I was a Christian when I made a mistake in marriage, believing my wife to be a true convert. It does not take much experience in the presence of Christian couples to come to the conclusion that Christians often make poor and misinformed marriage choices. So Brody's question would still invite an answer.
>>>>>>>>>> Should we preach the gospel to those whom we have identified as such?
It would seem so. "And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature." Mark 16:15
Should we expect a different kind of reaction to the Gospel from these half-humans than we might expect from humans? For example, can these "creatures" repent? If so, will they be cured of their half-human condition and made into whole men?
>>>>>>>>>> What is the criteria for figuring out that one is the offspring of a fallen angel?
How about this?
"and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God...." 1John 4:1-3
John certainly has given us a way to recognize a wrong spirit in the false prophets, which is what John is referring to (v.1). However, this test would not be of much use in distinguishing between a mere heretical false prophet, on the one hand, and demon-engendered half-man, on the other. I would hope to have something more specific as a test that would identify such a specific type of mutant being—at least, if it was important for us to know about them! Of course, if there is no need for us to know about them, then there is, arguably, no need for this thread.

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Re: The Book of Enoch in the ancient LXX and Qumran Tanakh

Post by Perry » Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:13 pm

Quick question... does this idea have name/label in theological circles? It makes me think a lot of the "serpent seed" doctrine, which has the name/label "serpent seed doctrine." I just wondered if there was a quick, short-hand way of referencing this idea. It does seem to come up from time to time.

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Re: The Book of Enoch in the ancient LXX and Qumran Tanakh

Post by Paidion » Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:21 pm

Those questions make a person think, Brody! If I tried to answer them, most of my answers would be mere speculation. But as for the last question:

What is the criteria for figuring out that one is the offspring of a fallen angel?

For those who believe the "sons of God" in Genesis are fallen angels (and I am inclined to do so), the answer seems to be plain in Genesis.
The offspring are GIANTS. Some, of course, do not think "nephilim" is properly translated as "giants".

The Septuagint translates "nephilim" as "γιγαντας" (gigantas) in Greek, from which is derived our English word "gigantic".
Paidion

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Re: The Book of Enoch in the ancient LXX and Qumran Tanakh

Post by charleswest » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:34 am

Perry wrote:Quick question... does this idea have name/label in theological circles? It makes me think a lot of the "serpent seed" doctrine, which has the name/label "serpent seed doctrine." I just wondered if there was a quick, short-hand way of referencing this idea. It does seem to come up from time to time.
How about the "SOGOTH" doctrine?

Sons of God (Other Than Human) = SOGOTH

Daughters of Men= DOM

SOGOTH + DOM <produce> GIANTS
“I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views... ” Abraham Lincoln. Excerpt from a letter to Horace Greeley. 22 August 1862
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Re: The Book of Enoch in the ancient LXX and Qumran Tanakh

Post by brody196 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:29 am

Paidion wrote:Those questions make a person think, Brody! If I tried to answer them, most of my answers would be mere speculation. But as for the last question:

What is the criteria for figuring out that one is the offspring of a fallen angel?

For those who believe the "sons of God" in Genesis are fallen angels (and I am inclined to do so), the answer seems to be plain in Genesis.
The offspring are GIANTS. Some, of course, do not think "nephilim" is properly translated as "giants".

The Septuagint translates "nephilim" as "γιγαντας" (gigantas) in Greek, from which is derived our English word "gigantic".
So, people who are abnormally large might be up for consideration? What are the exact measurements of one who "fits the bill" to be considered a giant?

To my mind, there are so many dangerous places a doctrine like this can take you. Certain hate groups already teach something similar to justify hating and killing people they do not like. I have no problem believing that the the Genesis 6 account is dealing with fallen angels, but to suggest that the same phenomenon is happening today(as some do) is absolutely ludicrous to my mind.

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Re: The Book of Enoch in the ancient LXX and Qumran Tanakh

Post by Perry » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:55 am

Paidion wrote:What is the criteria for figuring out that one is the offspring of a fallen angel?
...the answer seems to be plain in Genesis.
The offspring are GIANTS.
Even if I were inclined to believe that the sons of God here referenced were fallen angels (which I'm not), I don't see that the giants are their offspring... rather that the giants lived contemporaneously with their offspring who were "men of renown." For some reason when I see that "men of renown" I often think of Hercules (probably a complete non sequitur). It's possible that a closer examination of the original Hebrew would reveal subtleties that could persuade me otherwise.


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Re: The Book of Enoch in the ancient LXX and Qumran Tanakh

Post by charleswest » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:02 am

brody196 wrote:
Paidion wrote:Those questions make a person think, Brody! If I tried to answer them, most of my answers would be mere speculation. But as for the last question:

What is the criteria for figuring out that one is the offspring of a fallen angel?

For those who believe the "sons of God" in Genesis are fallen angels (and I am inclined to do so), the answer seems to be plain in Genesis.
The offspring are GIANTS. Some, of course, do not think "nephilim" is properly translated as "giants".

The Septuagint translates "nephilim" as "γιγαντας" (gigantas) in Greek, from which is derived our English word "gigantic".
So, people who are abnormally large might be up for consideration? What are the exact measurements of one who "fits the bill" to be considered a giant?

To my mind, there are so many dangerous places a doctrine like this can take you. Certain hate groups already teach something similar to justify hating and killing people they do not like. I have no problem believing that the the Genesis 6 account is dealing with fallen angels, but to suggest that the same phenomenon is happening today(as some do) is absolutely ludicrous to my mind.

"So, people who are abnormally large might be up for consideration? What are the exact measurements of one who "fits the bill" to be considered a giant?"

Starting at between 9 and 10.5 feet...
1Samuel 17:2 - And there went out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height [was] six cubits and a span. <<<CUBIT= 18inches, or LONG CUBIT 21 inches >>>
“I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views... ” Abraham Lincoln. Excerpt from a letter to Horace Greeley. 22 August 1862
= = = =
Be Blessed. We Are Loved...
cw

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Re: The Book of Enoch in the ancient LXX and Qumran Tanakh

Post by Perry » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:19 am

charleswest wrote:Starting at between 9 and 10.5 feet...
For some reason, I'm picturing a very large version of one of those plywood cartoon character cut-outs at amusement parks. "You must be at least this tall"...

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Re: The Book of Enoch in the ancient LXX and Qumran Tanakh

Post by brody196 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 11:54 am

charleswest wrote:
brody196 wrote:
Paidion wrote:Those questions make a person think, Brody! If I tried to answer them, most of my answers would be mere speculation. But as for the last question:

What is the criteria for figuring out that one is the offspring of a fallen angel?

For those who believe the "sons of God" in Genesis are fallen angels (and I am inclined to do so), the answer seems to be plain in Genesis.
The offspring are GIANTS. Some, of course, do not think "nephilim" is properly translated as "giants".

The Septuagint translates "nephilim" as "γιγαντας" (gigantas) in Greek, from which is derived our English word "gigantic".
So, people who are abnormally large might be up for consideration? What are the exact measurements of one who "fits the bill" to be considered a giant?

To my mind, there are so many dangerous places a doctrine like this can take you. Certain hate groups already teach something similar to justify hating and killing people they do not like. I have no problem believing that the the Genesis 6 account is dealing with fallen angels, but to suggest that the same phenomenon is happening today(as some do) is absolutely ludicrous to my mind.

"So, people who are abnormally large might be up for consideration? What are the exact measurements of one who "fits the bill" to be considered a giant?"

Starting at between 9 and 10.5 feet...
1Samuel 17:2 - And there went out a champion out of the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, of Gath, whose height [was] six cubits and a span. <<<CUBIT= 18inches, or LONG CUBIT 21 inches >>>
Are you sure that was given as a template for measurement, or rather was just stating the size of the individual?...

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