John saw the Holy Spirit

[RICHinCHRIST]

When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. - Matthew 3:16

"I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.' - John 1:33

Through these two passages, we can deduce that John the Baptist witnessed with his eyes that the Holy Spirit descended and rested upon Jesus. How do we reconcile this since the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity? John 1:18 says that "no man has seen God at any time".

Do we have to conclude that this is a similar thing to what Moses experienced? He didn't see the face of God directly, but only the glory of God?

[Perry]

I've never coupled John the Baptist's experience with that of Moses. I'm more inclinded to be reminded of the "tounges of fire" in Acts, where we also see the Holy Spirit poured out, but not a full manifestation of God's glory.

It's also worth noting that, even having witnessed this, John later sent his disciples to Jesus asking "Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?" [Luke 7:19] Probably a human enough question for John to be asking from a prison cell and considering he would soon be executed. Whatever it was he saw/heard when he baptized Jesus, it apparently wasn't enough to keep him from ever doubting, or perhaps ever full realizing what Jesus was up to.

Not that I'm criticizing John overmuch, incidentally, especially given what Jesus says in verse 28.

[RICHinCHRIST]

I think this verse helped me a bit. I seemed to have read over the fact that when the Spirit descended "like a dove" it was in a different form than the literal Spirit of God. In some way He, the Spirit, was disguised enough in dove form to allow John the Baptist to behold Him. I probably posted this question too quickly without pondering this...

[TK]

I have always wondered whether a "dove" actually descended- or something "like" a dove... I guess I always assumed that a dove actually did come down but John made the connection that it was symbolic of the HS.

TK

[benstenson]

It says it was the spirit descending. It was in a form like a dove, descending the way a dove would descend - but it was the spirit.

The spirit had a form, location, motion, and came from the direction we call "up".
The spirit's form resembled a dove. The spirit's motion resembled the motion of a dove.
But the Spirit had this form.

[Candlepower]

I have always wondered whether a "dove" actually descended- or something "like" a dove... I guess I always assumed that a dove actually did come down but John made the connection that it was symbolic of the HS.

Good point. And because John was a prophet, we can trust that his "connection" was accurate.

CP

[Paidion]

Sometimes in scripture, the thing that is seen, was seen in a vision. Here are three examples:

1. Clearly in Revelation, many things were shown to John in a vision, and in recording these things, he frequently says, "And I saw..." where the things He saw were things revealed to him in a vision or visions.

2. It seems that Peter, James, and John saw Moses and Elijah in a vision as well as the transfiguration of Christ.



Verse 3 states: And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Some conclude from this sentence that Moses and Elijah somehow came back from the dead and actually appeared to them in person. However, verse 9 records that Christ afterwards said to them, "Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead." I conclude that the words of verse 3 are actually saying that Moses and Elijah appeared to them in a vision.

What about the way Jesus revealed Himself to Paul on the road to Damascus? Did Jesus actually appear? If so, why did Paul's companions not see Him? Just after Jesus was raised from the dead, when he appeared to people, everyone who was present, saw Him. Why not in this case? However, such reasoning is unnecessary to show that it was a vision since Paul himself clearly indicates in Acts 26:19 that Jesus' instructions to him on the road to Damascus were given through a vision.

So when it says that John saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, it may refer to John seeing the Spirit in a vision. It was common for God to reveal Himself to prophets through visions.

[Perry]

So, getting back to the original question, would this be considered a theophany (since the Holy Spirit is God)?

[charleswest]

When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. - Matthew 3:16

"I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.' - John 1:33

Through these two passages, we can deduce that John the Baptist witnessed with his eyes that the Holy Spirit descended and rested upon Jesus. How do we reconcile this since the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Trinity? John 1:18 says that "no man has seen God at any time".

Do we have to conclude that this is a similar thing to what Moses experienced? He didn't see the face of God directly, but only the glory of God?

I wonder if "God" in the phrase above is meant to refer exclusively to the Father?

If so, then all other items are true, since men saw both the Son and the Holy Spirit.

[Paidion]

Jesus stated that He and the Father would make their home or dwelling with anyone who loves Him and keeps His word. This is the way that Jesus and His Father manifest themselves to Christ's disciples.
Is this not the holy spirit? ---- the Father and the Son dwelling with the people of God by means of their abiding spirit ---- one spirit which they both share. Our "spirits" are confined to our bodies. I cannot extend my spirit in or with you and talk with you directly, but the Father and Son can do so. I know their spirit is with me, but I cannot see it (or "he" if you prefer). If the Father and the Son are dwelling with us, is it necessary to assume a third divine individual?

No one can see the holy spirit, because it is a spirit, or rather THE Spirit! There is only one unique Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Father and the Son, and so I suppose I should capitalize the word when it refers to the Spirit of God the Father and the Spirit of Christ (both phrases are found in the New Testament). The day will come when we will see God the Father and His beloved Son. But do we expect to see the Holy Spirit in heaven? Did you ever wonder why there is no record in the Bible of anyone praying to the Holy Spirit? There is plenty of prayer to the Father. Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." But not once did anyone address the Spirit in prayer. Oh yes, some pray to the Spirit today, and we have songs with words such as, "Holy Spirit, you are welcome in this place." However, if my understanding is correct, and the Spirit is not a third divine individual, but is simply the Persons of the Father and the Son extending their Spirit to remain in or with people, then this could be a dangerous practice, for one possibly may be addressing a spirit with whom he would never wish to communicate.