About Christ's Physical Body and Our's...

[look2jesus]

I was recently asked to post some thoughts or questions regarding possible concerns about full preterism. As I was pondering on the subject, I came up with some thoughts regarding one line of argument that, were I a full preterist, I would have a difficult time refuting without doing some kind of scriptural gymnastics. I would appreciate any comments regarding the soundness of the argument, which is as follows:

What I intend to show from the scriptural account is that not only did Jesus rise from the dead "physically" (along with properties that we do not now possess), but we also will share a common "physicalness" with Him, after our physical death. In Luke's Gospel, he seems to emphasize the actual "physicalness" of Jesus' resurrected body. For example,

As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!” But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate before them. Luke24:36-43 ESV

What I want to point out in this portion of scripture is that one of the things that Jesus did in order to prove that he was really present in the flesh was to take a piece of food, and eat it in their presence. Now, shortly before this happened, Jesus was in the upper room with His disciples and we find this:

And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him. And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves. For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” Luke 22:14-18 ESV

Here, we see that Jesus claims that there will be a time (not until the kingdom of God comes), in the future, when He will eat and drink. From Matthew's account, we learn that He will not be alone.

“I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” Matthew 26:29 ESV

This is confirmed elsewhere in both Luke and Matthew.

“You are those who have stayed with me in my trials, and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” Luke 22:28-30 ESV

Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world [the regeneration], when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” Matthew 19:28 ESV

In another place, we learn that Jesus and the Apostles will not be alone at this gathering.

“I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven...” Matthew 8:11

My question for the full preterist is, on what specific scriptural basis would you deny the physical nature of the meal being partaken of by Jesus and the others in the "fully arrived" kingdom of God?

Another question might be, how did the events of 70 A.D. fulfill these scriptures?

[Mellontes]

Look2Jesus,

I need to ask a couple of clarifying questions, first of all. Good post, by the way...

What is the kingdom of heaven to you? Some believe it is the realm to which we pass after physical death (believers only of course), some believe it is a future, earthly kingdom with a physical Jesus on a physical throne, some believe it is salvation, and others believe in a hybrid of two or more of the previous.

Is the kingdom of heaven the same thing as the kingdom of God?
I probably will have others questions to ask as well. And I am sure you will have some follow-up questions for me...

Blessings!

[Mellontes]

Let's begin. I will venture in a bit and then wait for my first two questions regarding the kingdom to be answered...

First of all, I do not dispute the physical nature of Jesus after His resurrection. Because you were offering proof of this you must think that I somehow deny that point. So, I am not quite sure why you brought that aspect up. But neither do I dispute the non-physical nature of Jesus after the resurrection. Here is why:

The disciples, from the verse you referenced in Luke 24:37, were scared because they thought they had seen a spirit. Now why would they think that? Perhaps it was because they were in a closed room and Jesus just appeared!

John 20:19 - Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.How would you go about explaining exactly how His going through the walls would be accomplished? Is it possible He possessed both natures (physical and spirit) as did the angels? But take note that these types of things were done BEFORE the resurrection as well. See Luke 4:28-30, and Matthew 14:25-26.

Anyway, I am not sure what your point was concerning His physical nature when it is also clear that he had "something different" going on both before and after the resurrection. I'll stop here for now...

[look2jesus]

Dear Mellontes,

What is the kingdom of heaven to you?
Is the kingdom of heaven the same thing as the kingdom of God?

To answer out of order, yes, I believe there is no distinction between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God. In answer to the first question, in the context of my argument, I am referring to the consummation of the kingdom of God; the time Jesus indicated in Luke 22, when the kingdom of God “comes”. That it is the consummation of the kingdom is apparent because Jesus had already said that the kingdom had arrived. This would correspond to the time Jesus was indicating in Matthew 19, we he said “in the regeneration”.

First of all, I do not dispute the physical nature of Jesus after His resurrection. Because you were offering proof of this you must think that I somehow deny that point. So, I am not quite sure why you brought that aspect up.

My point was that spirits don’t eat, only people with physical bodies eat. Jesus demonstrated that He had a physical body, with flesh and bones. His body was a “glorified” body. His body was now immortal, no longer subject to death. Your assertion that Jesus may have two natures (one physical and one spiritual) is an assumption that is not justified by the text. The text indicates that Jesus’ new body had acquired different characteristics than His old body (the one that was identical to our bodies) had had.

Matthew doesn’t explain why the disciples thought He was a spirit. All that is indicated is that Jesus performed a miracle in His normal physical body, by walking on water. Can a spirit grasp a sinking man?
Luke said that “He passed through their midst”. I didn’t notice his commentary on how Jesus morphed into His “spirit mode” and then passed through their midst.

Please demonstrate from the scripture how the “something different” Jesus had going on before His resurrection, had anything to do with having a different physical nature than we have.

Now, the point of my argument was simply to show that in the consummation of the kingdom, a time after we have physically died, we too will eat and drink, something people do with physical bodies; albeit, glorified physical bodies.

So, again I would ask, on what specific scriptural basis would you deny the physical nature of the meal being partaken of by Jesus and the others in the "fully arrived" kingdom of God? Thanks.

l2j

[Mellontes]

Dear Mellontes,

What is the kingdom of heaven to you?
Is the kingdom of heaven the same thing as the kingdom of God?

To answer out of order, yes, I believe there is no distinction between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God. In answer to the first question, in the context of my argument, I am referring to the consummation of the kingdom of God; the time Jesus indicated in Luke 22, when the kingdom of God “comes”. That it is the consummation of the kingdom is apparent because Jesus had already said that the kingdom had arrived. This would correspond to the time Jesus was indicating in Matthew 19, we he said “in the regeneration”.

First of all, I do not dispute the physical nature of Jesus after His resurrection. Because you were offering proof of this you must think that I somehow deny that point. So, I am not quite sure why you brought that aspect up.

My point was that spirits don’t eat, only people with physical bodies eat. Jesus demonstrated that He had a physical body, with flesh and bones. His body was a “glorified” body. His body was now immortal, no longer subject to death. Your assertion that Jesus may have two natures (one physical and one spiritual) is an assumption that is not justified by the text. The text indicates that Jesus’ new body had acquired different characteristics than His old body (the one that was identical to our bodies) had had.

Matthew doesn’t explain why the disciples thought He was a spirit. All that is indicated is that Jesus performed a miracle in His normal physical body, by walking on water. Can a spirit grasp a sinking man?
Luke said that “He passed through their midst”. I didn’t notice his commentary on how Jesus morphed into His “spirit mode” and then passed through their midst.

Please demonstrate from the scripture how the “something different” Jesus had going on before His resurrection, had anything to do with having a different physical nature than we have.

Now, the point of my argument was simply to show that in the consummation of the kingdom, a time after we have physically died, we too will eat and drink, something people do with physical bodies; albeit, glorified physical bodies.

So, again I would ask, on what specific scriptural basis would you deny the physical nature of the meal being partaken of by Jesus and the others in the "fully arrived" kingdom of God? Thanks.

l2j

I'm afraid this is not going very well at all. I asked:

"What is the kingdom of heaven to you? Some believe it is the realm to which we pass after physical death (believers only of course), some believe it is a future, earthly kingdom with a physical Jesus on a physical throne, some believe it is salvation, and others believe in a hybrid of two or more of the previous."

You still have not specified what it means.

[look2jesus]

Dear Mellontes,

In answer to the first question, in the context of my argument, I am referring to the consummation of the kingdom of God; the time Jesus indicated in Luke 22, when the kingdom of God “comes”.

The stress in my argument has more to do with the "when" of these things, not so much the "what". However, I understand this to commence on the Day of God that Peter refers to in 2 Peter 3, when the present earth and heavens are burned up, and we finally behold what we have been waiting for, i.e., the new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells. The kingdom of God, here, then, is that blessedness that will ensue when, in the new earth, God will dwell with us, and we will be His people, and God Himself will be with us as our God, as John describes it in Revelation 21. I hope this helps you.

l2j

[Mellontes]

Dear Mellontes,

In answer to the first question, in the context of my argument, I am referring to the consummation of the kingdom of God; the time Jesus indicated in Luke 22, when the kingdom of God “comes”.

The stress in my argument has more to do with the "when" of these things, not so much the "what". However, I understand this to commence on the Day of God that Peter refers to in 2 Peter 3, when the present earth and heavens are burned up, and we finally behold what we have been waiting for, i.e., the new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells. The kingdom of God, here, then, is that blessedness that will ensue when, in the new earth, God will dwell with us, and we will be His people, and God Himself will be with us as our God, as John describes it in Revelation 21. I hope this helps you.

l2j

Yes, I realize that what you said in reference to the kingdom of God/heaven was related to the "when." I was hoping you would have answered MY question as to the "what" or the nature of the kingdom...but, no matter. I understand the "when" of your kingdom of God. For you, it is still sometime in the future.

Hopefully, you will see the "when" of the fulfillment in that Revelation passage you referenced:

Revelation 21:1-3 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

I understand the two bolded events to be related. I think you do as well, although you believe them to be future events.

The Apostle Paul quoted from Ezekiel 37:27 as did the Apostle John...(Make sure you look it up).

2 Corinthians 6:16 - And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The Apostle Paul is showing the Corinthians that the fulfillment is to the church, the body of Christ, God's people by faith in the new covenant. I have been saying for a long time now how that the new Jerusalem is the church, and also how Christians are the new creation (new heaven and earth) within this new covenant (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Revelation 21:1-3 is a long past fulfilled event...

The new Jerusalem is none other than the one Paul spoke of (in relation to the two covenants) as the Jerusalem which is above. He was comparing that one to the Jerusalem which now is (the first century pre-70AD Jerusalem) which was referring to the law (old covenant).

Galatians 4:22-31 - For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Hopefully, you can see that it was the old covenant, unbelieving Jews who persecuted the Christians. The old covenant Jews (who refused to believe Christ) would lose all right to the kingdom and would be cast out. So much for the Jews recieving a kingdom ever..."The Jerusalem which is above" is none other than the heavenly Jerusalem - the new Jerusalem. You become a member of this new Jerusalem by salvation.

1 Corinthians 15 is the great resurrection chapter, is it not? I have been trying to stress that the resurrection is salvation-oriented for some time now. It is from the mortal body (first Adam) to the immortal body (second Adam) - 1 Corinthians 15:22, 1 Corinthians 15:45.

1 Corinthians 15:54 - So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Paul quotes Isaiah 25:8 from the above verse. And when is "Death swallowed up in victory"? It occurs at the SAME time as when the tears are wiped away!

Isaiah 25:8-9 - He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.

The Apostle John also draws from Isaiah 25:8 in Revelation 21:4. Hopefully, you can see Revelation 21:4's fulfillment as well...

Revelation 21:4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

So, you see, I believe that God is tabernacled among us at salvation; you believe this is a yet future event.

[look2jesus]

Dear Mellontes,

Now that you have explained your view of the new heavens and the new earth, could you please address my opening post. Thanks.

Another question might be, how did the events of 70 A.D. fulfill these scriptures?

l2j

[Mellontes]

Dear Mellontes,

Now that you have explained your view of the new heavens and the new earth, could you please address my opening post. Thanks.

Another question might be, how did the events of 70 A.D. fulfill these scriptures?

l2j

You know what...I think not. It is too time consuming and nobody is really paying attention. Most just ignore what is said with Scriptural support and then ask more questions. Eventually, you will ask a question that I don't have an answer to, and then you will all shout with joy proclaiming "See, full-preterism is false!" Some else can take up the charge for a change...

Books you need to read just to get basic introductory knowledge:

The Parousia - J. Stuart Russell
The Elements shall Melt with Fervent Heat - Don Preston
We Shall Meet Him in the Air - Don Preston
Exegetical Essays on the Resurrection of the Dead - Samuel Frost
Mystery Babylon - Don Preston
Beyond Creation Science - Tim Martin, Jeffrey Vaughn
The Lost World of Genesis One - John H. Walton

Or you could even read mine: Creeds, Credentials, or Christ? Just pay for the shipping...

And having made all those book suggestions, I doubt anyone will pursue them. Which is why someone else can take up the charge...

P.S. - Sorry Michelle, you are on your own...