Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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kaufmannphillips
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Re: Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?

Post by kaufmannphillips » Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:33 pm

SamIam wrote:
I hear your girlfriend has been talking to Joseph Smith, Ellen G White, Sun Yung Moon, David Koresh and lots of other guys. What's up with that?
Excellent point! If I try to listen to my girlfirend, I might end up like those guys!

And hey - if I try to talk to her, I might end up saying horrible things like Mel Gibson... I better not talk to her, either!

And with social statistics being what they are, I might end up divorcing her... I definitely better not marry her!


Gotta say, the best guarantee of success is to never risk failure.

:|
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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Homer
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Re: Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?

Post by Homer » Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:44 pm

Kaufmannphillips wrote:
The imperative built on the present tense stem is called the present imperative and indicates a continuous action. The imperative built on the aorist tense stem (without augment) is called the aorist imperative and indicates an undefined action. There is no time significance with the imperative. Once again we urge the adoption of the terminology "continuous imperative" and "undefined imperative." {William D. Mounce, Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar}
Whether Mounce is correct, or Spiros Zodhiates is correct, I am not qualified to judge. So at best it is a "tie" between "receive now" or "take in the future". And Jesus' statement that the Holy Spirit could not come unless He went away breaks the tie for me.

and:
I might end up saying horrible things like Mel Gibson
This is a bit off topic, but that was very interesting to hear Gibson's conversation with his ex whatever she was. It was pointed out to me by an observant woman how his "ex" calmly and repeatedly, and by all appearances intentionally, provoked his rage. That fit in quite well with what Steve was saying today on the program about when you take offense then the other person can take control of your emotions, which she did. He fell for it, and she was also very wrong in her behavior. (This could be another thread about taking offense.)

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kaufmannphillips
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Re: Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?

Post by kaufmannphillips » Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:50 pm

Homer wrote:
Whether Mounce is correct, or Spiros Zodhiates is correct, I am not qualified to judge. So at best it is a "tie" between "receive now" or "take in the future". And Jesus' statement that the Holy Spirit could not come unless He went away breaks the tie for me.
:arrow: We don't have to hang upon a duel between grammarians. We may consider parallel examples of the aorist imperative in John.

On one hand, we have the example at John 4:7. When Jesus interacts with the Samaritan woman at the well, we find an aorist imperative: "Give me a drink." This is presumably not a directive that implies to be fulfilled on some occasion several days or weeks later; this is a request for the general (though not absolutely coincident) present.

On another hand, we have the example at John 5:8. When Jesus tells the man at the pool to "Get up, take up your bed, and walk," once again we have an aorist imperative (viz., “take up”). Presumably, a rather timely response was expected here - not something on the order of weeks or months hence.

And on another hand, we may consider the parallel at John 2:7. When Jesus commands the servants at Cana to fill the waterpots with water, this is another aorist imperative. Presumably, this is also a directive that is intended to be fulfilled promptly, in the generally present circumstance.

So there is no grammatical reason why the imperative in John 20:22 could not have been intended to have a prompt fulfillment.


:arrow: Which brings us to the other portion, "Jesus' statement that the Holy Spirit could not come unless He went away."

Let's look at a few verses here:

And he said this about the spirit that the ones having believed in him were to take, for a spirit was not yet [taken], because Jesus was not yet glorified. {John 7:39}

But I did not say these things to you from the beginning, because I was with you. But now I am going away to the one having sent me, and none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going away?’ But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I might go away: for if I might not go away, the paraclete will not come to you; but if I might go, I will send it to you. {John 16:4b-7}

Being, then, the evening in that day – the first day of the week – and the doors having been shut where the disciples were (due to fear of the Jews), Jesus came and stood in the middle, and saying to them, “Peace to you.” And having said this, he showed the hands and the side to them. Then the disciples were delighted, having seen the Lord. Then Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you. Just as the Father has delegated me, I also am sending you.” And having said this, he breathed into [them], also saying to them, “Take a holy spirit." {John 20:19-22}

:?: Why does the text mention that he breathes into them?
(The verb here is used once in the Septuagint – in the passage where G-d breathes life into Adam.)

:?: Has Jesus “gone away” by the time he breathes into them?

John 14:28 = “You heard that I said to you, ‘I am departing and I am coming to you.’ If you were loving me, you were delighted because I am going to the Father – because the Father is greater than me.”

:?: Has Jesus been "glorified" by the time he breathes into them?

John 17:1, 4-5 = “Jesus said these things; and having lifted up his eyes to heaven, he said: ‘Father, the hour has come! Glorify your son, in order that the son might glorify you. … I glorified you upon the earth, completing the work that you gave me in order that I might do it. And now, glorify me, Father, with yourself – with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.”
Last edited by kaufmannphillips on Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
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TK
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Re: Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?

Post by TK » Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:14 am

I listened to this chapter from Tozer's "The Pursuit of God" on the way into work this morning:

http://www.theboc.com/freestuff/awtozer ... voice.html

TK

Apollos
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Re: Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?

Post by Apollos » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:17 am

Homer wrote: Whether Mounce is correct, or Spiros Zodhiates is correct, I am not qualified to judge.
Homer, are you sure you have represented/interpreted Zodhiates correctly? He may favor the grammatical possibility of the future intention, but I very much doubt he would make the mistake of asserting that the aorist must be future, as you represent him as saying.

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Homer
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Re: Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?

Post by Homer » Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:47 pm

Hi Kaufmanphillips,

I could not discern from your last post whether you are agreeing with me or disagreeing.

You wrote:
Has Jesus been "glorified" by the time he breathes into them?

John 17:1, 4-5 = “Jesus said these things; and having lifted up his eyes to heaven, he said: ‘Father, the hour has come! Glorify your son, in order that the son might glorify you. … I glorified you upon the earth, completing the work that you gave me in order that I might do it. And now, glorify me, Father, with yourself – with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.”
Are you seeing the aorist imperatives in the passage as proleptical? That is the view of John Peter Lange in his commentary. A friend who teaches New Testament Greek in college holds Lange in highest regard. Lange sees Jesus' glorification as occuring through His death and resurrection and the Father's through the outpouring of the Spirit and establishment of the church. Interestingly, we see Jesus' equality with ther Father here - who else could say to God "Glorify Thou me, that I may glorify Thee"?

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Homer
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Re: Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?

Post by Homer » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:03 pm

Apollos wrote:
Homer, are you sure you have represented/interpreted Zodhiates correctly? He may favor the grammatical possibility of the future intention, but I very much doubt he would make the mistake of asserting that the aorist must be future, as you represent him as saying.
Here is Zodhiates comment in "Grammatical Notations", "Definitions of the Grammatical Categories" exactly as he has it:

4. the Aeorist Imperative (aim) means a command for doing something in the future that is a simple action. This is contrasted with the present imperative, which involves a command for a continuous or repetitive action.

Since the Greek tenses are more about the kind of action than our tenses which focus on time, is it possible that the future action could be within minutes and still be future in the Greek? I have checked my old Zodhiates and my new one; both say the same thing.

See note #6 here under "general observations:

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/jmarks/su ... mmands.pdf

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Re: Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?

Post by Apollos » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:13 am

Homer wrote:Apollos wrote:
Homer, are you sure you have represented/interpreted Zodhiates correctly? He may favor the grammatical possibility of the future intention, but I very much doubt he would make the mistake of asserting that the aorist must be future, as you represent him as saying.
Here is Zodhiates comment in "Grammatical Notations", "Definitions of the Grammatical Categories" exactly as he has it:

4. the Aeorist Imperative (aim) means a command for doing something in the future that is a simple action. This is contrasted with the present imperative, which involves a command for a continuous or repetitive action.

Since the Greek tenses are more about the kind of action than our tenses which focus on time, is it possible that the future action could be within minutes and still be future in the Greek? I have checked my old Zodhiates and my new one; both say the same thing.

See note #6 here under "general observations:

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/jmarks/su ... mmands.pdf
Thanks for the clarification.

I don't know where Zodhiates gets that idea from.

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Homer
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Re: Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?

Post by Homer » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:36 am

Hi Apollos,

You wrote:
Thanks for the clarification.

I don't know where Zodhiates gets that idea from.
Perhaps Zodhiates is correct in a technical sense as in the note #6 that I posted the link to?

Apollos
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Re: Why is it good for us that Jesus went away?

Post by Apollos » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:42 pm

Homer wrote:Hi Apollos,

You wrote:
Thanks for the clarification.

I don't know where Zodhiates gets that idea from.
Perhaps Zodhiates is correct in a technical sense as in the note #6 that I posted the link to?
Hi Homer,

Note #6 wants to make all imperatives future, whether the tense is present or aorist. I'm not sure all grammarians would agree with that (though technically a person can't fulfill an imperative command under a point future to the command being given), but he is being consistent.

Perhaps Zodhiates wasn't clear, and should have added the underlined words (which are mine):

the Aeorist Imperative (aim) means a command for doing something in the future that is a simple action. This is contrasted with the present imperative, which involves a command for a continuous or repetitive action in the future.

If so, he was probably expecting the reader to take his 'that is a simple action' at the end of the first sentence as a qualification qualifying the aorist aspect to the imperative - i.e. the aorist imperative is the command for doing something in the future that is a simple action, not a continuous one like the present imperative.

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