Death, Then What?

[Guest]

Upon death, a believer's soul leaves the body and enters into the presence of Jesus. Upon the Second Coming of Christ, we will recieve our new resurrected bodies.

In the meantime, what are the opinions relating how do we recognize others in the intermediate heaven; will we have temporary bodies; will we be able to touch each other and have verbal conversations, etc.?

[Guest]

Upon death, a believer's soul leaves the body and enters into the presence of Jesus. Upon the Second Coming of Christ, we will recieve our new resurrected bodies.

If this is true, why do we need resurrection bodies at the Second Coming? Why not content to flit around heaven forever as disembodied souls or spirits?

Did Jesus' soul leave His body at death and enter the presence of His Father in heaven? No. After His resurrection He said to Mary, "Don't hold me, for I have not yet ascended to my Father." If He didn't ascend to heaven at death, can we expect to? For He must have the pre-eminence ---- the first-born of creation, the first-born from the dead, etc. [Col 1]

It seems that we still cling to the Greek concept --- the Platonic concept of the "soul" as a separate entity from the "body". When God breathed into Adam the breath of life, he became a "living soul"; he didn't receive a soul.

In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word "nephesh" seems to mean "being"
You are a "human soul" ---- that is, a "human being".
Genesis speaks of the "soul" of beasts as well as the "soul" of man.

Can a soul be dead? Can you touch a dead soul?

In Numbers 19:11 we read:

He that touches the dead soul of any person shall be unclean seven days.

Of course, translators translate "nephesh" as "body" in this verse. But it's the same word. In my opinon it should be translated as "being". We CAN touch a dead being.

I think that when we die, we're dead! And unless God raises us to life again, we'll stay dead.

King David didn't believe in consciousness immediately after death. He prayed in Psalm 6:4, 5
Turn O Yahweh, save my life:deliver me for your mercy's sake. For in death there is no remembrance of you; in the grave who can give you praise?
In Psalm 146:3,4 we read:
Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. His breath goes forth, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

So, if in death we cannot remember the Lord, or give Him praise, and if our thoughts perish on the day of our death, then we will have to await our resurrection in order to be with the Lord.

In the days of the early church, it was only the gnostics and other heretics who entertained such a notion as going to heaven at death. Justin Martyr, a well-known leader and author in the early church, born about 110 A.D., in his discussion with Trypho and other Jews, stated: "If you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, ... who say that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven, do not imagine that they are Christians..."

[Guest]

Paidion,

Actually, I believe our spirit goes to heaven when we die, and I get it from the Bible of all places.

Luke 16:19+ is a good example of continued existance after death but before the resurrection.

Also Paul says in 2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 We live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

So if I am away from my body, were am I? With the Lord. The same place the souls were in Revelation 6:9 and 20.


Also, Jesus said to the theif on the cross: "today you will be me in paradise". And "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit". So that's were His spirit went.

James (2:26) says: "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."

If this is true, why do we need resurrection bodies at the Second Coming? Why not content to flit around heaven forever as disembodied souls or spirits?

Because the Bible says it's going to happen.

1 Peter 2:11
Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.

Paul said:

"For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please."

What's waring against what? Peter seems to equate soul as Paul equates spirit.

And what about:

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

How can the body be killed and the soul be yet alive?

[Guest]

Paidion, It's true in the OT you can find many verses that indicate soul sleep. But possibly after Christ's resurrection it allowed believers spirits to be alive in Christ while i think unbelievers do sleep until the resurrection. I think in 1 Thes 5 Paul does state that we have a body,soul and spirit.

[Guest]

This discussion is getting interesting.

I used to believe in so-called "soul sleep" myself, but through a study of the cultural context and the symbolism of the bible, I ended up changing my mind. So, I'm familiar with many of the arguments both for and against.

Paidon is correct in noting that a "soul" - Hebrew nephesh - is a "breathing creature." A living soul has a spirit - Hebrew ruach - which can also be translated as "breath." In other words, what defines a living soul as "alive" according to the bible is the fact that they can draw breath.

I've covered the following already in my study on "Water and the Spirit" but I'll summarize here. When a person is baptized in water and receives the Holy Spirit, they are given spiritual life at that time. When a person is born in water (the watery amniotic fluid of the womb), they begin breathing, which means that they have the "spirit in man" which is their breath (Job 32:8, 34:14-15; Eccl. 3:18-21, 8:8, 12:7). This is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit which gives man physical life.

See the dichotomy? Interesting, isn't it?

So the question becomes, is a disembodied spirit - which is where a person's personality resides - conscious after death?

By examining the symbolism of the bible, one can come to the conclusion that yes, it is. In fact, it has to be.

When God exiled Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden, from His presence, it was because they had sinned. He declared in exiling them that the punishment for sin was death. However, once they died, the penalty was paid and they were free to re-enter His presence in the heavenly Eden! (Note that the Eden on earth was modeled after the one in heaven; see 2 Cor. 12:2 and 4. "Paradise" is just the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word "Eden.") But disembodied spirits have to be conscious in order for this to make sense.

In fact, when the disciples saw Jesus, they at first thought that they had seen a "ghost" - a disembodied spirit. (Disembodied spirits look like the people looked when they were alive, only they're insubstantial.) See Luke 24:36-40. The disciples weren't mistaken in their belief regarding spirits - although Jesus had already received His resurrected body by this time - or otherwise Jesus would have taken the opportunity to explain differently at this juncture.

Anyway, what Jesus' sacrificial death did was pay the penalty for all men's sins, so that those who have died in Him can be resurrected from the dead! (In other words, if Jesus has already paid the penalty, then when people die in Him, they don't need to stay dead because that penalty has already been paid.) When they're resurrected, their new bodies are made of spirit (1 Cor. 15:42-44). However, rather than being insubstantial, they can be felt and handled, just as the disciples were able to feel and handle Jesus' body after His resurrection. Such bodies do have "flesh and bones" - only made of spirit, rather than physical matter.

The reason for this is that the Kingdom of God is not just a spiritual Kingdom which exists in heaven - although at this time, it certainly does. The Kingdom of God as an eternal Kingdom is also destined to encompass the earth. See Matthew 6:9-10, among many other passages. That will happen after the resurrection from the dead, when the earth will be peopled with resurrected members of God's Kingdom, just as heaven is currently peopled with angelic members of God's Kingdom.

And yes, I know it's the preterist position that the Kingdom of God exists on earth now. That's certainly true, but it's just one facet of the concept that the Kingdom of God is based on love - love for God and for one's neighbor. It's through love that everything can be made eternal instead of merely temporary. And if anyone would like me to elaborate on this or cite Scriptures to back this up, just say so.

Damon

[Guest]

There have been many interesting statements made with regard to this subject, and I wish I could address them all. However, to do so in a single post would make it too long. So I'll address just two of them for now.

Also, Jesus said to the theif on the cross: "today you will be me in paradise".

No. That is not what he said. Let's examine His words carefully from Luke 23:43

He said ONE of the following:

1. And he said to him, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise."

2. And he said to him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Which one did He say? We cannot determine which from the Greek text, as there were no commas in the Greek that Luke wrote. For that matter there were no periods either, and no spaces between words. And all words were written in capitals.

I've heard some people say that it couldn't have been #1, because people don't talk that way. They say that in that case "today" is redundant. Of course He's telling them today ---- when else could He tell them?

But I think the expression was idiomatic. Indeed we still say something similar in our age. We say, "I'm telling you right now." We use "right now" for emphasis, even though strictly speaking it's unnecessary.

But what about 2 Corinthians 5:8?

We are of good courage, and we would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

Isn't this a clear indication that we will be present with the Lord as soon as we die?

The real meaning becomes clear when we examine the context. Let's consider verses 1, 2, and 3 from this same chapter:

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Here indeed we groan, and long to put on our heavenly dwelling, so that by putting it on we may not be found naked.

What is this "building from God"? This "house not made with hands"? This "heavenly dwelling" which we will put on? Is it not the resurrection body? Paul says that we "long to put it one so that we will not be found naked." If we were "found naked" would this mean we were in a "disembodied state"? But when we shall be raised to life, we will not be disembodied.

Paul said in I Cor 15, the great resurrection chapter in verse 44:

It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Isn't our "spiritual body" of I Cor 15 identical to our "heavenly dwelling"
of II Cor 5?

So Paul's topic in II Cor 5 is the resurrection! Paul wrote of this topic frequently in his letters. He showed that the resurrection is of paramount importance.

And now let me paraphrase the clause from II Cor 5:8 by adding a few words which make it clear that Paul had not ceased talking about the resurrection.

"We would rather be absent from this present mortal body, and present with the Lord in the immortal resurrection body."

Paul's analogy of the resurrection with the grain of wheat planted in the ground is a good one. The grain "dies" in the ground, and springs up in a very different form. It doesn't spring up immediately, but does so eventually. Likewise, we are not raised immediately after we die, but must await our resurrection.

Paul believed that our whole purpose is linked to our personal resurrection. In verse 32 of I Cor 15:

If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."

Is he not saying that if there is no resurrection, then we may as well live happily, in the little time that we have, and never mind eternal matters, for there is no after-life?

Why would he think like that if we simply went to heaven at death? Surley we could live our lives as disciples of Christ, and receive our eternal reward(s) even though we had no resurrection of the body!

Some posts have referred to "soul sleep". I do not subscribe to that view.
I go much further. I think that when we die, we no longer exist! We depend on the Lord to raise us up.

Our Lord and the apostles frequently referred to death as "sleep". Sometimes we have a dreamless sleep. We go to sleep, and the next thing we know, we have awakened with no memory of what happened while we were asleep. Usually when a person in a hospital is rendered unconscious and are operated upon, he has no recollection of even having been put to sleep. Frequently he asks when he's going to have the operation. He is surprised to find that it had already been performed!
Similarily, when we "awake" in the resurrection, we will have no memory of events between our death and resurrection. Our resurrection might take place hundreds or thousands of years later!

Jesus didn't go to heaven at death. He said to Mary, "Don't hold me. I have not yet ascended to my Father." So shall Jesus have the pre-eminence in being the first begotten of creation, and the first born from the dead, but not the first to go to heaven immediately at death?

It's also clear that no one went to heaven before Jesus' time, for He said, "No one has ascended to heaven, except the son of man who descended from heaven."

[Guest]

Paidion,

So on Luke 23:43 you can't disprove that it could mean "today" is when they will be in paradise. Right?

As far as 2 Cor 5, notice how it says:

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Here indeed we groan, and long to put on our heavenly dwelling, so that by putting it on we may not be found naked.

Is our resurrected body going to be eternal in the heavens? Is it waiting for us right now in heaven? I thought our dead body is raised when the dead come out of their tombs and is transformed. I didn't think our dead body went to the grave and we have a replacement waiting in heaven.

I rather see this referring to the "promised land" or "rest" as in the "meek shall inherit the earth".

As is Hebrews 11:15;

And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

We see this city coming down out of heaven in Revelation 21. This is the bride of Christ coming down from heaven. these are the saved people.

How is it that there are people in heaven whitnessing the events in revelation if they are "dead".

Also remember when Moses and Elijiah appeared to Jesus.

You mentioned what Jesus said about no man has gone up to heaven. That was true before He made a way. That's why Jesus speaks of Lazarus as not going to heaven but "Abraham's bosom". Since the time of Christ we go into his presence. That's what being "in Christ" means. Paul said we are raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenlies. This is Spiritually speaking, so are you saying when we die, we are no longer spiritually raised up and seated with Him but are not seperated and dust until the resurrection?

Just some things to think about.

I've given a lot of thought to soul sleep. I could be true but I think otherwise. There are many hints of existance after death and before the resurrection, a big one being Luke 16.

[Guest]

Paidion, I agree unbelievers sleep awaiting resurrection to judgement but since believers are judged in this life why should they sleep?
In Phil 1.21 Paul said "For to me ,to live is Christ and to die is gain." and in 1.23 "But i am hard pressed from both directions having the desire to depart AND BE WITH CHRIST for that is very much better."
Paul said "to die is gain" , why would going to sleep begain? It sounds like the gain is to be with Christ.
Paul also said "depart and be with Christ" , this sounds like an immediate transition from one to the other does'nt it? Paul used the words "and be" as in immediate because he did'nt say "and eventually be" or "and be at the resurrection."

[Guest]

Sean, IMO the "rich man and Lazerus" is the fifth parable in a series of 5 that Jesus spoke to the Pharisees. The previous 2 began with "a rich man" and " a certain man" and this combined the previous 2 into "a certain rich man." There are also other parables that use names which i'll list asap. Regarding "Father Abraham" only the jewish nation thought of Abraham in that way so this story is about the gulf that existed and would exist for rejecting Christ and assumming that the natural connection to Abraham would save them. The apparent literal descriptions of flames (without fire) and torment are jewish idioms which they understood IMO and not literal.

[Guest]

Okay, in my next post I'll discuss "the big one", that is Luke 16.

Right now, I would like to attempt to answer these questions:

Is our resurrected body going to be eternal in the heavens?

Yes, Paul said we would be raised immortal!
The word "immortal" means not subject to death. In order not to be subject to death, a person has to be "eternal". The Greek word which some translate as "eternal" is "aionios" which means "going from age to age". That which goes from age to age MAY come to an end, or it may not. Since we will be immortal, our resurrection bodies will never cease to exist.

Is it waiting for us right now in heaven?

I don't think God has prepared a resurrection body, and will transfer the "soul" into this body at the resurrection. Did you get this idea from the word "eternal"? Current thought is that there is an infinite regression of time into the past. I think time had a REAL beginning. But I won't get into that now. Just consider "eternal" as a synonym for "unending".

I thought our dead body is raised when the dead come out of their tombs and is transformed.

Absolutely true!

I didn't think our dead body went to the grave and we have a replacement waiting in heaven.

You are right. It's not a "replacement". It's the same body, but a changed body. "This mortal must put on immortality". Is it not a similar idea to the following from II Cor 5?

"Here indeed we groan, and long to put on our heavenly dwelling"