1 Th 4 - 5

[Mellontes]

Hi Doug,

You said somewhere in this thread the following:

1 Peter 4:3-6 For the time that has passed was sufficient for you to do what the non-Christians desire. You lived then in debauchery, evil desires, drunkenness, carousing, drinking bouts, and wanton idolatries. So they are astonished when you do not rush with them into the same flood of wickedness, and they vilify you. They will face a reckoning before Jesus Christ who stands ready to judge the living and the dead. Now it was for this very purpose that the gospel was preached to those who are now dead, so that though they were judged in the flesh by human standards they may live spiritually by God's standards.

Here again we have the statement "stands ready to judge the living and the dead." And again, It makes sense that the living are the Christians and the dead are the non-Christians (those that live in debauchery, evil desires, ect). and as the passage states the very purpose of preaching the gospel to the non-Christians (the dead) was that they may live. Again we can come back to Heb 9:27 and state each person in appointed once to die, then the judgement. Everyone upon death will face Jesus Christ who stands ready to judge (the Christian and the non-Christian, or another way of saying that is the living and the dead).

I want to ask you how the very next verse (1 Peter 4:7) plays into the context.

And then I want to ask you who both the "we's" are from 1 Thessalonians 4:15. Are they the writers of the epistle combined with the Thessalonian believers or are they the church today? And lastly, how would those 1st century recipients interpret Paul's letter to them, especially since the question of "what about the dead" was raised by THEM, and not by our present-day church?

P.S. - I have chosen to use the bold text to differentiate what you said from what I said...I was not trying to yell or anything like that.

Blessings!

[Douglas]

Let's dig into the Scriptures... Fun, fun..

1 Jn 3:2.. Dear friends, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.


Notice that we are told in the above passage that "what we will be has not yet been revealed." And that when it is revealed we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And keep in mind that He is in the resurrected body.


Phi 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven - and we also await a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform these humble bodies of ours into the likeness of His glorious body by means of that power by which He is able to subject all things to Himself.


In this passage we are told that Jesus will transform these humble bodies of ours into the likeness of His glorious body. But at the same time we know that what we will be has not yet been revealed. Therefore we can say that the transforming of these humble bodies of ours into the likeness of His glorious body does supply us with some information, but at the same time it does not reveal to us what we will be, for both statements are true.


l2j states "Surely you don't believe that all the graves of all the believers who have died since Jesus rose from the dead are empty, do you? But, if not, why not?"


While people who have died recently most likely still have physical bodies laying in graves, I would venture to guess that the majority, if not all, of the graves of people who died 2000 years ago are indeed empty, as the natural decomposition process has probably finished its job. Right? So I guess I could answer your question above with at least some of the graves from the dead are now empty. Although I don't believe the presence of physical dead bodies in graves has anything to do with the resurrection of those who have died, and so the question is irrelevant in my mind.


1 Cor 15:35 But someone will say "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" Fool! What you sow will not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare seed...


1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

All I can really say is what I am told in Scripture. I can make some guesses based on what I read about Jesus' resurrected body, but they are only guesses. Like will we look the same as we do now? As some of His own disciples didn't even recognize Him after the resurrection. Will we eat or have the need to eat? Jesus ate after His resurrection. Will we be able to walk through walls and appear and disappear at will? Jesus did. The Bible doesn't tell me if these are characteristics that we observe in Jesus' resurrected bodies are necessarily what we will have. People often assume that is the case, but we have to remember that our resurrected body will only be in the LIKENESS of His and that it has not been revealed to us what we will be yet.


Rom 8:18-24. I do not think this passage states directly that the redemption of our bodies (which I believe is the resurrection) occurs at the same time that creation itself will be set free from its bondage of decay and the revealing of the sons of God. I believe that is read into the text. Obviously when we die, we are set free from the bondage of decay, but the world will still continue to decay until the "end of time." Is it not possible that for the Christians who have died, they are with Christ now at this very time (absent from the body, present with the Lord) who we know is in His resurrected body, in heaven. I believe that those Christians who have physically died are also in resurrected bodies, in heaven with Christ, waiting for "the end" at which time, when they will be revealed to the new creation.

1 Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror indirectly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known.


When will we know fully? My inclination is that when I am with Christ, I will know fully. And I believe I will be with Christ upon my physical death. (absent from the body, present with the Lord). And 1 Cor 13:12 would indicate to me that I will see face to face. So I surmise I must have a face. And therefore I must be in a resurrected body shortly after leaving my mortal physical body if I am able to see face to face. Obviously the part about "see in a mirror indirectly" is not literal, but figurative, so the "face to face" may not be literal as well, but its still possibly a valid conclusion, although I wouldn't press it because of that fact. But I bet it made you think a little.

Now for the big question. How should 1 Cor 15:51 be understood? The majority of Christians think that there will be a final generation that will "escape" physical death upon the return of Christ, and with this thought in mind, 1 Cor 15:51 seems to agree with that.

1 Cor 15:51 listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed.

consider this verse Mat 6:13.. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.

If you have every studied the "Lord's prayer" in depth you may have found the first part of Mat 6:13 a little difficult to make sense of all by itself. "do not lead us into temptation." As that statement would be misunderstood if we just stopped there and didn't include the last part of "but deliver us from the evil one." What we have here is called a "Hebrew poetic device" for emphasis that is used for clarification that I learned from Steve Gregg. The thought is completed by the second clause. So basically the idea is that we are praying for God not just leave us during a temptation without His help when we are actually lead into temptation, (because we know that God does allow temptations to come our way). And as Steve said, wouldn't you rather be lead by God than yourself or the devil. So the first part of that "do not lead us into temptation" if taken without the second part and understanding in the context that this is a form of Hebrew poetic literary device would be misunderstood, and frankly I think is by many people.

Now back to 1 Cor 15:51 we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed.

If we consider that 1 Cor 15:51 may be like Mat 6:13 and that the first part should not be interpreted alone, but in context of the second half. You could understand it like this. We will not all just die and be left in the grave dead, but that we will all be resurrected upon death. The idea is that Paul is not trying to convey the idea that some will die and some will not, for I doubt any of his readers really thought they would escape physical death, but that when they did die, they would be resurrected.

HI Melontes,
As your questions will require me to study and think, I will respond as soon as I can.

Doug

[Mellontes]

Doug said :"HI Melontes,
As your questions will require me to study and think, I will respond as soon as I can."

Mellontes says: Sure, just as long as it is a preterist "soon."

And besides, it won't take that much time for you to study out the answer; it is pretty much common sense if you understand the hermeneutic principle of audience relevance and the historical/grammatical approach...

Let me add one more...

1 Cor 15:51 listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed.

Who is the "we" in both instances above? Is it Paul and the Corinthian believers? Or is it the present-day church folk 2,000 years removed from the historical context?

[Douglas]

1 Peter 4 1 - 7
Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you. They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.

In order to determine the context of verse 7 "But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers." I try to place it into the immediate verses as well as the overall message of the Bible.

"for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God."

It would appear that the immediate context of 1 Peter 4 1 - 6 is dealing with how we should live the rest of our lives in the flesh. And that upon death, those who do evil will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

The big question is really how should we understand "the end of all things is at hand". Should we use the immediate context of "the rest of time in the flesh", that is until physical death and then judgement? Or in a bigger context? When reading in other places in the Bible it tells us about the prediction of Jesus coming in judgement in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple? Would the "end of all things" be AD 70? Those are the only two options I see possible, as I don't think it could be the end of the world, as we are about 2000 years past the writing of this and that doesn't seem to fit into the "at hand" part.

I would lean to thinking it is in regards to the fact that persecutions were great at the time of this writing, which is specifically talked about in this book, and that physical death was anticipated to be at hand as probably many fellow Christians had already died, and therefore the end that is being referred to here could be physical death. Although it could be AD 70.
I am not sure how you could determine which is being referred to here. What do you think? and how do you come to your understanding given the context?

As to your second question. the "we's" in 1 Thes 4:15. I think it is Paul and his readers.

1 Thes 4:15 "For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep"

As I believe the "coming of the Lord" in THIS context is most likely physical death. Paul is telling his readers that they will not go into the presence of the Lord until they physically die, and that those who have died already are already with the Lord. (Absent from the body, present with the Lord)

As to your other question of the "we's" in 1 Cor 15:51 we know that it was written by Paul to the Corinthians. So I would venture to guess the "we's" are just that.

I am not sure why you even ask such a question to be certain. Just because Paul was writing to his contemporaries, the information is just as valuable to us now in providing information and knowledge about God and His purpose for them as well as us. I would extrapolate from what the Bible tells us that when I die and leave my mortal body, I will go and be present with the Lord. Either in a newly resurrected body immediately or later at the end of time. I am not certain for sure when I get my awesome newly immortal, spiritual body... But I am certain I will go and be present with the Lord upon my death, as that is not ambiguous to me, and that is all that I really care about. I just put out the idea that the resurrected body comes at the point of physical death as a possibility instead of at the end of time.

What do you think?

Doug

[Mellontes]

What do I think? Be careful brother

Physical death is always brought into the argument as to what the coming of the Lord (the parousia event) meant. I believe it is an error to assume physical death. The whole of Matthew 24 deals with the timing for the Parousia event. It is the classic section dealing with this topic. Mark asked when these things were "about to" happen (Mello - Strong's 3195). The end of the "world" is the end of the "age" - the old testament economy. Now, if death for the individual is what is meant by the Parousia, then how could Jesus refer to this event by the signs of the times given when this event would occur. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Christians died before the expiration of the events in Matthew 24 - Paul for example. This is precedent setting for the timing of the Parousia.

Has the OT economy passed? Yes. In fact, its passing has now been longer in duration than its previous existence...

Personal death is not the issue. And don't forget Paul's specific mention of those being alive when they were to be changed...He didn't say when we all die.

Blessings! Wife is calling me for breakfast...

[Douglas]

What do I think? Be careful brother

As Steve has said "This reminded me of one of my "assured principles" of doctrinal assessment: "I have no right to consider any doctrine innately dangerous if it does not prevent its followers from being better Christians than me."

[look2jesus]

Hey Douglas,

I’m really sorry I haven’t had the opportunity to respond to your comments. I’ve been looking forward to doing so but you know how easy it is to let some things go when there are so many other things that can take up our time. Forgive me brother. I’ll pick up where you left off with me, if you don’t mind.

Concerning 1 John 3:2,

Notice that we are told in the above passage that "what we will be has not yet been revealed." And that when it is revealed we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. And keep in mind that He is in the resurrected body.

I would only comment that the time of His appearing that is in view here, based on 1 John 2:28, would seem to be at the Second Coming of Christ.

2:28 And now, little children, remain in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink away from him in shame when he comes back.

But more crucial to my argument, and what I feel you have not answered at all—to my satisfaction anyway—is the point taken from Philippians 3:20.

In this passage we are told that Jesus will transform these humble bodies of ours into the likeness of His glorious body. But at the same time we know that what we will be has not yet been revealed. Therefore we can say that the transforming of these humble bodies of ours into the likeness of His glorious body does supply us with some information, but at the same time it does not reveal to us what we will be, for both statements are true.

The point I was making in introducing this text was to show that our present earthly bodies of flesh and bone will one day be transformed into the likeness of Christ’s glorious body. In the accomplishing of this, it seems rather apparent that a regeneration of our dead corpses will transpire, after which there will be nothing left of us, materially speaking, in our graves. This is exactly the picture we have of Jesus’ resurrection. When He came forth from the grave, there was no physical body left behind in the tomb. His dead fleshly corpse had been transformed into a glorified body.

It is true that “what we will be has not yet been revealed” but after looking more carefully at 1 John 3:2, I’m not at all convinced that John was addressing our future physical appearance, but rather, I feel it is more likely he is talking about our God-likeness when we see Him.

I think physical death is going to be a "resurection" of some sort. A change, in a twinkling of an eye, when we put off the mortal body. And my current believe is that our immortal, spiritual body will be given to us at that time as well, just like Christs body.

While people who have died recently most likely still have physical bodies laying in graves, I would venture to guess that the majority, if not all, of the graves of people who died 2000 years ago are indeed empty, as the natural decomposition process has probably finished its job. Right? So I guess I could answer your question above with at least some of the graves from the dead are now empty.

In 1 Cor. 15 Paul wrote concerning the resurrection,

15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also came through a man. 15:22 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him.

15:35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”

15:42 It is the same with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. 15:43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

15:50 Now this is what I am saying, brothers and sisters: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 15:51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed – 15:52 in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

After Jesus had ascended, Peter and Paul both told of the significance of the fact that Christ’s body did not decay, to show that David was not in view in the Psalm quoted in their sermons in the books of Acts. What makes that relevant is the fact that Jesus is called the “firstfruits” of those who will be raised from the dead. It seems reasonable to assume that just as Jesus’ body was changed when He was resurrected, so ours will be changed when we are resurrected. This agrees with what Paul said concerning our humble bodies—that they will be changed into the likeness of Christ’s glorious body.
When you couple this with what Paul says concerning when this change will take place it seems hard to avoid the conclusion that it will take place at the Second Coming, at least to my mind.

...I don't believe the presence of physical dead bodies in graves has anything to do with the resurrection of those who have died...the question is irrelevant in my mind.

This is exactly the view that I am trying to refute and what I’d like you to address. How do you support the view that our earthly bodies are not changed into glorified bodies at the time of our resurrection, in light of the scriptures I have presented. What the capabilities or character of these bodies will be is irrelevant, it seems to me.

When will we know fully? My inclination is that when I am with Christ, I will know fully. And I believe I will be with Christ upon my physical death. (absent from the body, present with the Lord). And 1 Cor 13:12 would indicate to me that I will see face to face. So I surmise I must have a face. And therefore I must be in a resurrected body shortly after leaving my mortal physical body if I am able to see face to face. Obviously the part about "see in a mirror indirectly" is not literal, but figurative, so the "face to face" may not be literal as well, but its still possibly a valid conclusion, although I wouldn't press it because of that fact. But I bet it made you think a little.

13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, 13:10 but when what is perfect comes, the partial will be set aside. 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. 13:12 For now we see in a mirror indirectly, but then we will see face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I have been fully known.

When will we know fully? Its seems you overlooked what Paul said. “When what is perfect comes.” It is then that we will see “face to face”. The question is, what does Paul mean by that expression? It could be a reference to the Second Coming, I suppose, so the fact that we have faces would be expected. It’s hard to say.

15:51 We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed…

If we consider that 1 Cor 15:51 may be like Mat 6:13 and that the first part should not be interpreted alone, but in context of the second half. You could understand it like this. We will not all just die and be left in the grave dead, but that we will all be resurrected upon death. The idea is that Paul is not trying to convey the idea that some will die and some will not, for I doubt any of his readers really thought they would escape physical death, but that when they did die, they would be resurrected.

You have a long way to go, in my opinion, to justify, biblically speaking, seeing the phrase, “but we will all be changed” as “but that we will all be resurrected upon death”. But perhaps you have some good reasons that you haven’t presented yet.

Hopefully, I’ll be able to keep up more promptly in the future.

God bless,

l2j

[Mellontes]

Doug, Look2Jesus,

May I contribute some thoughts? I will need a "yes" from both of you in order to proceed.

[look2jesus]

Mellontes,

You've got my blessings, brother. Please proceed.

l2j

[Mellontes]

Mellontes,

You've got my blessings, brother. Please proceed.

l2j

Thank you. Waiting for Doug...