Steve's response to challenges raised by Mark & Dusman

_Sean
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Re: This is the work you must do

Post by _Sean » Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:36 pm

Genevo wrote:Steve, you said,
"Paul is telling us that salvation itself (not faith) “is the gift of God, not of works.” Otherwise we would have to posit that Paul was concerned to counter false teachers who were claiming that faith itself was “of works” (i.e., the result of works)—not very likely, since no one has ever been known to advocate such a doctrine! "

However, the Arminian teaches that faith is self-generated, thus he may boast in his works. THIS IS WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS...

" Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. " Jn 6:29
How can faith be works righteousness? Faith is belief, works are works of the law. Belief and or trust is not a work of the law. Are you are somehow trying to say that faith is a work? This contradicts Paul in Romans:

Rom 4:4-5 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Belief is not a work. Even if someone wants to claim their faith is "self-generated" (a seperate issue) it cannot be equated with works righteousness. A begger, who knows he cannot reach God and accepts the Gospel brought to them is not "working" by believing it anymore than a begger who needs food is not working or earning their food by holding out their empty hand when some generous person places something in it.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)

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_Steve
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Post by _Steve » Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:38 pm

Genevo,
I agree with Sean in saying that, even if faith could be proved to be "self-generated" (whatever that means), it would be a separate issue from whether believing falls into the category of a work. You have quoted no scripture to demonstrate that the definition of a "work" is "something self-generated."

If breathing could be described as a self-generated action, or thinking were said to be a self-generated activity, would either statement classify breathing or thinking as a "work" in the biblical sense of that term? I am not aware of any such definition.

It seems to me that the scripture uses the word "work" to mean....well..."work."

Even the term "self-generated" is an ambiguous (and unbiblical) expression. Does it mean that faith is the result of me myself choosing to respond to the presentation of the Gospel? I think this is indeed true of faith.

But to say that I have made a choice does not mean that the choice arose from nowhere, without antecedent. "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Ro,10:17). This means that I cannot have faith unless I first hear the word of God. I cannot hear the word of God unless God first speaks. Thus our faith is preceded by God's gracious act of speaking to us.

Thus, though the decision to believe may be my own, the opportunity to believe is God's gift to me. Just as (in Sean's illustration) the beggar makes a choice to receive the coin offered to him. Yet his choice was precipitated by the generosity of the one who offers the coin.

Perhaps the stretching out of the hand is a "self-generated" act on the part of the beggar, but what "work" has he done? None that I can see.
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In Jesus,
Steve

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_Homer
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Post by _Homer » Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:33 pm

Hi Steve,

Very good that you are back!

For some time I have felt that the question of faith & works can best be understood by considering the meaning of anything we do in regard to our relationship with the Lord. Does the activity mean we are trusting in ourselves, or does it have the meaning of faith?

Consider Matt. 9:2 "And behold they were bringing to Him a paralytic lying on a bed; and Jesus seeing their faith said to paralytic..." Again in Mark 2:3f "And they came, bringing to Him a paralytic carried by four men. And being unable to get to Him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above Him; and when they had dug an opening, they let down on a pallet on which the paralytic was lying. And Jesus seeing their faith...". And what of the woman working her way through the crowd to touch the hem of His garment? Did not our Lord denominate all of these "works" by the term "faith"?

Was not Abraham's willingness and work in following God's command to offer Isaac as a sacrifice a great act of faith? Is not Hebrews 11 not only a description of what faith is but also what faith looks like rather than a list of "works"?

It seems to me we are too ready to use the term "legalist". Is going to mass a work or an act of faith for the Catholic who truly believes God has promised some benefit from doing so? The same can be said for the person who believes baptism actually carries a promise of some benefit.

If a begger on a street corner is told there is a large sum on deposit for him at a bank a mile away and if he will go there and sign some papers he can have it, is walking a mile and signing the papers a "work" or an act of faith?

Just thinking....
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_Steve
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Post by _Steve » Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:24 am

Homer,
Thanks for those insightful comments!

Blessings!
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_STEVE7150
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Sat Jul 16, 2005 2:43 pm

If predestination were true than why in the parable of the "Prodical Son" is the Father who represents God so overwhelmingly JOYFUL upon the return of his LOST SON. His son was DEAD but is now ALIVE and the Father could'nt be any happier. Why should he be so filled with joy if the Son were predestined to be saved. Same theme in the lost sheep and the lost coin they don't add up to predestination. Steve7150
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_Prakk
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Dead dead dead.

Post by _Prakk » Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:28 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:"If predestination were true than why in the parable of the "Prodical Son" is the Father who represents God so overwhelmingly JOYFUL upon the return of his LOST SON. His son was DEAD but is now ALIVE..."
Concentrate on that last part. Dead. As I remember it, the parable doesn't say, alive, then dead, now alive again. Dead is the operative word.

Hugh McBryde
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_Sean
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Re: Dead dead dead.

Post by _Sean » Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:09 pm

Prakk wrote:
STEVE7150 wrote:"If predestination were true than why in the parable of the "Prodical Son" is the Father who represents God so overwhelmingly JOYFUL upon the return of his LOST SON. His son was DEAD but is now ALIVE..."
Concentrate on that last part. Dead. As I remember it, the parable doesn't say, alive, then dead, now alive again. Dead is the operative word.

Hugh McBryde
It seems that dead and alive are paralleled with lost and found.

I guess I'm not quite sure what your saying.
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:56 pm

I presume the son was spiritually dead but when he saw his need for his Father he became spiritually alive. But the point i was making was about the Fathers joy when his Son became alive. That depth of joy does'nt square with the Father predestining the Son to become alive but rather the Son realizing this on his own IMO.
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_Prakk
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Never alive, always dead

Post by _Prakk » Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:26 am

Sean wrote:"It seems that dead and alive are paralleled with lost and found. I guess I'm not quite sure what your saying."
The lost are the dead, the dead in this case were never alive. Most problems with Calvinism center on the misunderstanding of who and what the dead are. It is more the "What" they are and not the who. They were not alive, then died, then were revived to life. They were and are, unless quickened, always dead.

Hugh McBryde

P.S. For anyone who knows, I do not receive email notifications of thread additions. I used to, I don't now, this has been going on for a while. I have done the things I ought to do, I think, to subscribe and receive notifications, but I do not get them. I get this instead. "
Ran into problems sending Mail. Response: 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay for s_gregg7225@yahoo.com

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_Sean
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Re: Never alive, always dead

Post by _Sean » Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:32 pm

Prakk wrote:
Sean wrote:"It seems that dead and alive are paralleled with lost and found. I guess I'm not quite sure what your saying."
The lost are the dead, the dead in this case were never alive. Most problems with Calvinism center on the misunderstanding of who and what the dead are. It is more the "What" they are and not the who. They were not alive, then died, then were revived to life. They were and are, unless quickened, always dead.
Well, I don't have a problem with that. But I usually see Calvinists using the term "dead" to mean somthing that it doesn't. Like total inability to respond to the gospel because "dead men don't respond".
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