Any Hope?

[steve7150]

But surely you will agree that it is God's will that all men should be saved now, and yet they are not. So, at least in some sense, God's will can be frustrated as long as He does not overturn free-will. And is it God's determined will or His desired will you refer to? Scripture quotes are helpful, such as your Isaiah reference.

Do you believe God will overturn free-will to save all?



Homer, It is God's will that everyone be saved but where did this word "now" come from? As far as whether God will have his will ultimately done,
"God declares the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done. My purposes shall stand and i will fulfill my intention. I have spoken and i will bring it to pass, I have planned and i will do it." Isaiah 46.9-11.

I am not certain whether God may overturn mans so called freewill but let's not forget that Satan blinds the minds of unbelievers (2 Cor 4.4) therefore has man really ever had freewill?

[Sean]

The typology in the OT is incomplete IMHO regarding salvation and also with it's contrast which is judgment. All we know from the OT is judgment meant destruction yet the question is in Rev 20 when everyone is raised to face Christ , is there any other purpose other then punishment?

I don't know except what I read: "The lake of fire is the second death." I don't read second chance. If there is one, great. I just don't want to hope for something I have not been informed about.

When you think of God's charactor as revealed through Christ the concept of simply punishment alone for unbelievers brings to my mind the song "Is that all there is"?
Just my vision i guess but i think God has a grander plan then "you're in bud or sorry bud you're out."

Please don't take this the wrong way, but this is what concerns me about UR. When Steve started the thread about how angry people seem to get over this issue, I have to admit it really bugs me too, even though I haven't spoke about it much. Motives are then guessed at for why someone would be against UR. Here is my reason for being upset with UR and it is based on UR arguements. Your quote above, read it again. Your opposition to CI or the traditional view is based on your attitude toward God if indeed the "plan" is "you're in bud or sorry bud you're out."

My main concern is the attitude toward God. It's like when I tell my children "no" and they say I don't love them anymore. UR's arguments usually point the finger at God because they don't like what the outcome would be "if" another view is correct.

Another argument I have heard is: If I am saved at the day of judgement but a loved one is now burning in the lake of fire, I don't know how that can be considered enjoyable.

I'm a bit astonished at this suggestion. You mean to tell me you would be unhappy with God for his (apparently) incorrect judgment of your loved one? Could you even have an attitude like this and escape the LOF yourself? Seriously. I don't mean you can't ponder the idea. I mean could you stand there on the day of judgment and see your loved one be thrown in the LOF and you acuse God of wrongdoing?!

IMO, I don't think it's possible to have a "loved one" be found guilty by the most righteous judge there is and be upset about it. Sure, I know, it may be contended that you aren't upset with God. You are upset with your loss. I don't think God is happy that He must judge. It's not as if He will be jumping up and down all happy while you are in tears! Marriage is until death. Children are for the Lord, not your own selfish joys. The Lord is where your heart and joy should be. And if the Lord of all declares someone guilty, it will be just. It seems a bit selfish to say you would be sorrowful in eternity and in the presence of God beacuse you idolized someone making them the source of your joy.

I realize this may come across strong. I only intend to express my concerns as clearly as I can. It just seems that UR is emotionally based. Are you sad to see a criminal prosececuted for crimes they have comitted? Or only when the person convicted is your friend? The view I have I would be overjoyed to find out God has extended Grace to those beyond the grave, not angry they didn't get their "due". However, I can't hold a UR view without it being clearly taught. If I did hold to UR and was wrong, I'm afraid I would be very frustrated that God isn't going to carry out judgment the way I thought it sould be.

[Sean]

Sean,

How do you know that the "Day of the Lord" as mentioned here is referring to some future day of judgment? The context itself says otherwise when it mentions "thief in the night" and "sudden destruction". If it were speaking of a day thousands of years from when it was written it wouldn't make much sense as there is nothing "sudden" about thousands of years.

First, it says the detruction is what is sudden. A theif in the night means the time is unknown. That's why Paul says this:
1 Thes 5:1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Second, I believe so because in this text wrath is contrasted with salvation (1 Thes 5:9). It's one or the other. To say both roads can lead to salvation would be a logical contradiction. Paul's words are nonsense if wrath=salvation. They clearly do not.

[Todd]

Sean,

How do you know that the "Day of the Lord" as mentioned here is referring to some future day of judgment? The context itself says otherwise when it mentions "thief in the night" and "sudden destruction". If it were speaking of a day thousands of years from when it was written it wouldn't make much sense as there is nothing "sudden" about thousands of years.

First, it says the detruction is what is sudden. A theif in the night means the time is unknown. That's why Paul says this:
1 Thes 5:1 Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

The imagery of, "like a thief in the night" is like someone goes to bed thinking everything is okay only to wake up the next morning and find out something very bad has happened. It is an unexpected personal disaster. But yet you say that the victim will live out his entire life and be dead for thousands of years before the thief comes? I say that the Lord visits those who are overcome in sin swiftly. We reap what we sow and each one is rewarded according to his works while we yet live and at an unexpected moment (like a thief in the night). The destruction is sudden (not delayed by millennia). This is what happened to those described in Rom 1:18-32 and also explained in Rom 13:1-4.

Second, I believe so because in this text wrath is contrasted with salvation (1 Thes 5:9). It's one or the other. To say both roads can lead to salvation would be a logical contradiction. Paul's words are nonsense if wrath=salvation. They clearly do not.

Just to be clear about my view on UR. Salvation, as commonly referred to in the New Testament, is the process of changing someone's life. One who is corrupted as a result of his own sinfulness comes to Christ and has his life changed through following the Holy Spirit. Salvation occurs when one repents of sin and instead clings unto righteousness through the enabling grace of the Spirit. God rewards this person with the fruits of the Spirit; he has found salvation. By contrast, one who continues to follow after fleshly desires reaps condemnation from the Spirit and God "gives them over" to a debased mind. This is the wrath of God, and it does not wait until after the resurrection which is long too late to change a life. Salvation therefore, is being saved from the corruption of one's own sinfulness - not from some post-death punishment.

Sin ends at death, but God will eventually destroy death. The sons of God will be raised first followed by the rest of creation unto a glorious liberty (Rom 8:18-23).

Todd

[steve7150]

Another argument I have heard is: If I am saved at the day of judgement but a loved one is now burning in the lake of fire, I don't know how that can be considered enjoyable.

I'm a bit astonished at this suggestion. You mean to tell me you would be unhappy with God for his (apparently) incorrect judgment of your loved one? Could you even have an attitude like this and escape the LOF yourself? Seriously. I don't mean you can't ponder the idea. I mean could you stand there on the day of judgment and see your loved one be thrown in the LOF and you acuse God of wrongdoing?!

IMO, I don't think it's possible to have a "loved one" be found guilty by the most righteous judge there is and be upset about it. Sure, I know, it may be contended that you aren't upset with God. You are upset with your loss. I don't think God is happy that He must judge. It's not as if He will be jumping up and down all happy while you are in tears! Marriage is until death. Children are for the Lord, not your own selfish joys. The Lord is where your heart and joy should be. And if the Lord of all declares someone guilty, it will be just. It seems a bit selfish to say you would be sorrowful in eternity and in the presence of God beacuse you idolized someone making them the source of your joy.








Sean,

I did'nt actually make this argument but i sympathize with it because God has put in us a sense of what justice is , and a knowledge or right and wrong. He gave us laws in the OT prescribing what the punishment s/b for various crimes and the crux of it was that the punishment fit the crime.
So for example my mother died of tongue cancer and could'nt speak in the last weeks of her life and although she was raised in a secular household she wrote on a pad that whatever God's will was she accepted it. Yet she knew nothing of Jesus and at that time neither did i although i did believe in God. If i find out she would spend eternity in hell because she did'nt know or understand Jesus, yes i would be devastated baed on what i understand of God and scripture and justice and mercy. It's not that i think anyone should gain eternal life wth God outside of Jesus , it's that my mother never had a chance.
Yes my feeings have emotion and also my love of my mother and how i understand justice,mercy and faithfulness the weightier parts of the law. In addition scripture says that God has wrath yet it also says He actually is Love. He is Love yet has wrath therefore God is complex to say the least and i believe can custom design and fit the fate due to each and every unbeliever.
So if you are astonished that one can be "upset" that a loved one may spend eternity in hell then i plead guilty, you can be astonished at me.

[Sean]

Steve,
As far as those who's end is unknown, all I can do is quote this passage:

Gen 18:25 Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

I trust that the Lord will judge righteously.

Todd,
While God does both chasten and pour out His wrath on those who are alive, it is also stated that:

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

2 Peter 2:9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,


Not only is death destroyed (as you mentioned) Revelation 20 also mentions this:

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

[Homer]

Todd,

You wrote:

By contrast, one who continues to follow after fleshly desires reaps condemnation from the Spirit and God "gives them over" to a debased mind. This is the wrath of God, and it does not wait until after the resurrection which is long too late to change a life.

Here goes old Hugh Heffner again! According to your argument, he has been experiencing God's wrath for over 50 years now and he hasn't even noticed, while many of the righteous suffer terribly. Since the wrath of God, as you say, is totally spent in this life, you would think we couldn't look about us and I see the rain falling equally on the just and the unjust.

Back in school so many years ago, in psychology we learned of the concept JND which stood for "just noticable difference". This was the smallest increment of change that could be noticed. There doesn't appear to me to be any JND in the experience of suffering by the wicked and righteous in this life. Perhaps you can conclusively show there is.

Blessings, Homer

[Todd]

Todd,

You wrote:

By contrast, one who continues to follow after fleshly desires reaps condemnation from the Spirit and God "gives them over" to a debased mind. This is the wrath of God, and it does not wait until after the resurrection which is long too late to change a life.

Here goes old Hugh Heffner again! According to your argument, he has been experiencing God's wrath for over 50 years now and he hasn't even noticed, while many of the righteous suffer terribly. Since the wrath of God, as you say, is totally spent in this life, you would think we couldn't look about us and I see the rain falling equally on the just and the unjust.

Back in school so many years ago, in psychology we learned of the concept JND which stood for "just noticable difference". This was the smallest increment of change that could be noticed. There doesn't appear to me to be any JND in the experience of suffering by the wicked and righteous in this life. Perhaps you can conclusively show there is.

Blessings, Homer

Homer,

Only God and Mr. Hefner really know what punishment he deserves and what has been (and is being) received. But I can tell you that there is a distinct differnce between those who lust after the flesh and those who follow the Spirit.

Gal 5:17-26
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

The condition of those listed in verses 19-21 is not to be envied, and neither is Mr. Hefner.

Todd

[Todd]

Since the wrath of God, as you say, is totally spent in this life, you would think we couldn't look about us and I see the rain falling equally on the just and the unjust.

Homer, after thinking about this for a day I find that we are talking about two different things. I agree that the rain falls on the just and unjust equally. These would be things like sickness, weather-related disasters, job layoffs, untimely death of a loved-one, etc. All of these things cause suffering and heartache and befall both just and unjust equally. However, the same thing cannot be said about sin-induced suffering.

Let's take the example of someone who habitually treats others with rudeness and disrespect. This person will no doubt suffer stressed and broken relationships which will lead to unhappiness and possibly bitterness and discontent. By contrast, the Spirit-lead disciple will treat others with kindness and respect which will no doubt lead to strong relationships and be rewarded by the same Spirit with joy and peace. We reap what we sow in this regard. A second example is a person who secretly indulges in internet pornography contrasted with the Spirit-lead individual who fills his thoughts with strengthening his faith and his family. The first man may destoy his marriage, lose his family, and find the corruption eating away at his soul like a cancer. The second will reap a happy, fulfilling life with his family and peace with God.

These are the kind of things I am referring to when I assert that God rewards each one of us according to our works while we live. Sin-induced consequences do not fall on the just; and the unjust have no peace with God.

Todd