Matthew 24

[postpre]

I heard a brief comment on Matthew 24 on the show today and I thought I'd make an observation.

33 "So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near -- at the doors! 34 "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Much is made of the phrase, "this generation," in Matthew 24. It's clear from Jesus' words that the generation that witnessess "these things (various signs)" will also witness the "Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (verse 30). I don't understand why preterists believe that "this generation" must necessarily be the generation to whom Jesus spoke these words. Even though Jesus employs the personal pronoun "you" throughout the chapter, I think there is a good reason to believe that it's the generation who witnesses the signs (and not necessarily the disciples whom Jesus spoke to) who will see all these things take place (including the coming of the Son of Man on the clouds). This is because there is a clear scriptural precedent (in prophetic passages) where certain things are projected to happen to the current audience hearing the words, but the fulfillment of these things are really intended for a different audience in the far future. In Deuteronomy 18, Moses spoke to the Israelites of his day:

15 " The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 "according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' 17 "And the LORD said to me: 'What they have spoken is good. 18 'I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 'And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him.

Yet, Peter, in Acts 3, understood that Moses' words could very well be applied to a generation different than the original generation who received (heard) the prophecy.

22 "For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 'And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'

[brody196]

Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.


It seems that Jesus was speaking of a localized event that his readers and hearers could understand. How do you apply the above verse in your system?

[AaronBDisney]

I think there is a good reason to believe that it's the generation who witnesses the signs...who will see all these things take place

I totally agree with this, and as history informs us, the generation that saw those signs is the generation that were hearing His words.

[postpre]

Notice the straightforward question from the disciples...

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" 4 And Jesus answered and said to them:

And Jesus' straightforward answer...

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I have a hard time thinking Jesus is speaking symbolically.

15 " Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Futurists see the abomination of desolation as taking place in Jerusalem, therefore, it is not surprising that Jesus would warn those living in that localized area.

[steve]

I don't think the quote from Deuteronomy (with the many references to "you") is a true parallel to the usage in Matthew 24 (though it is a minor point that I do not hang much weight upon). In Deuteronomy, Moses was speaking to the nation of Israel—a collective entity whose history transcends a single generation. A statement addressing a nation as "you" can apply to its citizenry at any time during its history. By contrast, Jesus was talking to four men in a private discussion (Mark 13:3), who had specifically asked Him for information that sounded relevant to them. When I was a dispensationalist, I used to say that the disciples here were representative of the Jewish nation, but of course I now realize that there is not the slightest reason to make this claim. The most natural way for me to understand the Olive Discourse is as follows (in some ways, Mark's and Luke's versions provide more clarity):

1. Jesus predicts the destruction of the temple (Matt.24:2/ Mark 13:2/ Luke 21:6)

2. Four disciples ask Him privately two questions about this prediction—the second question is conflated to two parts in Matthew, though Mark and Luke leave it in this simple form (Matt.24:3/ Mark 13:4/ Luke 21:7):

a) when will it happen? and

b) what portent will warn them of its nearness?

3. Jesus answers both questions directly:

Q. When will it happen?
A. Within this present generation (Matt.24:34/ Mark 13:30/ Luke 21:32)

Q. What portent will warn them of its nearness?
A. When you see "the abomination of desolation" (Matt.24:15/ Mark 13:14) which Luke identifies with the armies attacking Jerusalem (Luke 21:20)

It is possible to complicate the matter considerably, if we don't like the answers that Jesus gave, but, since things happened exactly as He predicted, and in the exact timeframe, it requires less ingenuity to simply recognize this as another remarkable case of fulfilled prophecy.

Postpre wrote:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I have a hard time thinking Jesus is speaking symbolically.

This is your problem, I think. A failure to recognize the standard apocalyptic symbolism can easily leave one confused.

[look2jesus]

Brother Postpre,
I recently read the following in the book of Isaiah,

Isa 13:1 ¶ The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.
2 "Lift up a banner on the high mountain, Raise your voice to them; Wave your hand, that they may enter the gates of the nobles.
3 I have commanded My sanctified ones; I have also called My mighty ones for My anger-Those who rejoice in My exaltation."
4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, Like that of many people! A tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together! The LORD of hosts musters The army for battle.
5 They come from a far country, From the end of heaven-The LORD and His weapons of indignation, To destroy the whole land.
6 ¶ Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore all hands will be limp, Every man's heart will melt,
8 And they will be afraid. Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them; They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth; They will be amazed at one another; Their faces will be like flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine.
11 "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.
14 It shall be as the hunted gazelle, And as a sheep that no man takes up; Every man will turn to his own people, And everyone will flee to his own land.
15 Everyone who is found will be thrust through, And everyone who is captured will fall by the sword.
16 Their children also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; Their houses will be plundered And their wives ravished.
17 "Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, Who will not regard silver; And as for gold, they will not delight in it.
18 Also their bows will dash the young men to pieces, And they will have no pity on the fruit of the womb; Their eye will not spare children.
19 ¶ And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, The beauty of the Chaldeans' pride, Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It will never be inhabited, Nor will it be settled from generation to generation; Nor will the Arabian pitch tents there, Nor will the shepherds make their sheepfolds there.
21 But wild beasts of the desert will lie there, And their houses will be full of owls; Ostriches will dwell there, And wild goats will caper there.
22 The hyenas will howl in their citadels, And jackals in their pleasant palaces. Her time is near to come, And her days will not be prolonged."

I was wondering whether there were any Jews around at the time that Babylon was overthrown by the Medes who might have questioned whether these prophecies were actually fulfilled or whether they were to expect a still future fulfillment because the signs in the heavens and the earth, that Isaiah describes, didn't literally happen. Just a thought.
Grace to you,
l2j

[postpre]

Moses was speaking to the nation of Israel—a collective entity whose history transcends a single generation.

The disciples of Jesus, too, are a collective entity that transcends a single generation. Jesus' instructions in Matthew 24 were to be passed on to future disciples, per His post-resurrection instructions to "teach them to observe all things that I have commanded you."

1. Jesus predicts the destruction of the temple (Matt.24:2/ Mark 13:2/ Luke 21:6)

A careful reading of these chapters reveals that only Luke 21 addresses the destruction of Jerusalem via the Roman armies in AD 70. Both Mark 13 (starting at verse 3) and Matthew 24 (also starting at verse 3) take place later in the day (at the Mount of Olives) after the Great Temple Discourse. In Luke 21, Jesus talks specifically about the Roman siege upon Jerusalem in verses 12-24. Notice how he opens his discussion in verse 12 (after having mentioned the "end" in verse 9) :

12 "But before all these things....

That is, before the wars and commotions, before nations and kingdoms rise up against each other, before the prevalence of famines and pestilences, and before the fearful sights and and great signs from heaven, the Roman siege upon Jerusalem will take place (described in verses 12-24).

Notice how verse 11 ends and verse 25 begins (after the parenthetical discussion of the Roman siege and the role the disciples will play in it):

11 "And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.

25 " And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;

When the disciples ask Jesus the question, "Teacher, but when will these things be", in Luke 21:7, Jesus indeed answers their question, but He waits until verse 12 to get specific. Before this, in verses 8-11 (and picking back up in verse 25), He speaks of a time after the Roman siege ("But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately." ). And according to verse 24, the "end" will not come until after the Jews are led away captive into all nations and after the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled:

24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

What piqued the disciples' interest as they made their way out of the temple grounds and down into the Mount of Olives was Jesus' earlier discussion about the end and His "coming in a cloud with power and great glory".

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

Having already spoken about the Roman siege earlier in the day on the temple grounds, Jesus now specifically answers His disciples question about an event that will occur after this, His "coming in a cloud with power and great glory," or "the end of the age."

[jarrod]

A careful reading of these chapters reveals that only Luke 21 addresses the destruction of Jerusalem via the Roman armies in AD 70. Both Mark 13 (starting at verse 3) and Matthew 24 (also starting at verse 3) take place later in the day (at the Mount of Olives) after the Great Temple Discourse. In Luke 21, Jesus talks specifically about the Roman siege upon Jerusalem in verses 12-24. Notice how he opens his discussion in verse 12 (after having mentioned the "end" in verse 9) :

I believe I heard this argument made by Bertoli in Steve's recent debate on the Olivet Discourse. I can't see how anyone makes the distinction that Luke (21:12-24?) is the only account that references the events in 70AD when they appear to be parallel when read in tandem. Obviously there are minor differences, but we would expect that to different audiences.

postpre, i was honestly unable to follow along with your explanation to even see your conclusion. I want, at the least, to see where you're coming from and I need more help.

[postpre]

Jarrod,

Sorry for the confusion. I probably didn't unpack that post as well as I should have.

I don't believe that Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem. Jesus gave this discourse (in which Matthew and Mark records) on the Mount of Olives, and not on the Temple grounds (where Luke 21 records). The Olivet discourse took place later in the day after the Great Temple Discourse.

On the Temple grounds we read the following:

6 "These things which you see -- the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 7 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"

Following this, Jesus does answer their question, but also mixes his response with allusions to the second coming as well (not tied to 70 AD: see my last post for clarification):

27 "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. - Notice the third person plural reference here (not the second person plural- "you")

Yet, on the Mount of Olives, the disciples are most curious about the "end of the age":

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

This is the same "end" spoken of in the Great Commission:

19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

IMO, it's a mistake to assume that Luke 21 is a parallel account of Matthew 24 and Mark 13. They are two entirely different discourses, given at two different times on the Tuesday before the crucifixion of Christ. One (Luke 21) speaks of both the Roman siege in 70 AD and the second coming, while the other (Matthew 24 and Mark 13- the Olivet Discourse) speaks strictly of the second coming.

My previous post elaborates a little more, which may now make more sense. Let me know if you have any further questions.

Brian

[steve]

Brian,

You wrote:

Jesus gave this discourse (in which Matthew and Mark records) on the Mount of Olives, and not on the Temple grounds (where Luke 21 records). The Olivet discourse took place later in the day after the Great Temple Discourse

.

Where in the world does this information come from?

Is it your opinion that Jesus made the same prediction twice on the same day, and the disciples asked the same questions twice the same day (Mark 13:4; Luke 21:7), but that Jesus gave different answers the first time from those He gave the second time the same day? I am trying to reconstruct this picture, according to your suggestions.