God's Will and the Death of Dr. Tiller

[Homer]

I had initially asked Thomas, in the Roman Catholic category, about the murder of the abortionist Dr. Tiller. Tiller was a Lutheran. This also brings up the matter of God's will which was being discussed under Selah's thread concerning "Does God want some people sick......?

I have moved some of the posts on that thread here as this subject is not about the RCC.

My post:

In the news today is the story of the murder of the infamous abortionist, George Tiller. As much of a shock as the murder was the fact he was a member in good standing of a Lutheran Church, where he was slain:

From the article in the New York Times:

Dr. Tiller had attended the church for a long time, they said, and had contributed significantly to construction of the current facility, which was built in about 1996.

It appears the church was built with "blood money"! Where have the Lutherans gone? I can see how Thomas would prefer the RCC.

And as troubling to me as the whole mess was my reaction to it: a feeling of satisfaction that justice occurred, and thinking that I should not have that feeling. As the Babylonians punished the Jews, and God took credit for it, did God, by His "permissive will", punish Tiller through the one who murdered him?

There is enough in this event for several threads. Homer

To Which RCMCatholic replied:

It is interesting to make such a comparison to sin and then punishment.

Recently, you will remember a plane carrying 7 children and 7 adults to a skiing trip in a small plane that crashed into a Montana cemetery. The cemetery was Catholic Holy Cross Cemetery owned by Resurrection Cemetery Association in Butte . The cemetery contains a memorial for local residents to pray the rosary, at the 'Tomb of the Unborn' in memory of aborted children.

This plane that crashed into Holy Cross killed family of Dr. Irving 'Bud' Feldkamp. This included 2 of Feldkamp's daughters, 2 sons-in-law and 5 grandchildren along with the pilot and 4 family friends. Feldkamp owned 17 California Family Planning clinics that perform more abortions in the state than any other abortion provider, Planned Parenthood included, and they perform abortions through the first 5 months of pregnancy.

He is not an abortionist (rather a dentist) but he still reaps profits of blood money from the tens of thousands of babies that are killed through abortions performed every year at the clinics he owns. His business in the abortion industry was what enabled him to afford the private plane that was carrying his family to their week-long vacation at The Yellowstone Club, a millionaires-only ski resort.

This must carry heavy on the remaining family. Much like in 2 Sam David’s sin with Bathsheba cost him the life of his son, here Feldkamp must live with the loss of family, too.

It is scary to be a predictor, a soothsayer, of occurrences like you have described or even to the same above. Would God use a murderer to kill an abortionist in a Church? God being all knowing and all powerful could have easily killed him with his car hitting a tree without using a sinful murder as a tool for His wrath. It is best to stay away from from such illuminations so that you do not become one yourself. God and CountryUSMCatholic


And I responded:

USMCatholic,

You wrote:

It is scary to be a predictor, a soothsayer, of occurrences like you have described or even to the same above. Would God use a murderer to kill an abortionist in a Church? God being all knowing and all powerful could have easily killed him with his car hitting a tree without using a sinful murder as a tool for His wrath. It is best to stay away from from such illuminations so that you do not become one yourself. God and Country

Are you saying I am in danger of becoming a predictor, a soothsayer, a murderer, an "illumination" (whatever that is) because, as you apparently did not notice, I asked a question? And expressed concern regarding my reaction to the event? If you read it carefully, I think you can see I made no statement of God's involvement.

So is it your view that God was taken by surprise by what happened to Tiller, and thus could not have prevented the murder, or that God foresaw it coming, but was powerless to intervene, or that He could have intervened but chose not to or what? That He is on the sidelines and can not or will not get involved in this world?

Excerpt from John Mark Hick's blog:

concurrentism (concursus). This affirms that divine and human actions (or nature, if a natural phenomenon) are concurrent in every event within the world. In other words, God is always working within every event, but each event is some kind of cooperative effort between God and the creation. God, therefore, is always a cause that works through or alongside other causes both human and natural. Consequently, nothing happens in the world in which God is not somehow involved and where God does not intend that something specific happen. In every event God acts alongside his creatures to accomplish specific goals, even if God’s goal is different from other actors in the drama. For example, whereas a human being may intend evil, God may, through that same event, intend good as in the case of Joseph in Egypt (Genesis 50:20; cf. Isaiah 45:1, 7, 12-13). As a result, God and his human agent worked concurrently to produce the event, but with different intentions and ultimately with the divine telos accomplished.

What is your view? Am I misunderstanding you?

Blessings, Homer

It seems to me the implications of the positions we took (open theism, God's sovereignty, etc.) in our discussion under the "Does God Want People Sick...?" thread also apply in this case. Comments anyone?

[steve7150]

And as troubling to me as the whole mess was my reaction to it: a feeling of satisfaction that justice occurred, and thinking that I should not have that feeling. As the Babylonians punished the Jews, and God took credit for it, did God, by His "permissive will", punish Tiller through the one who murdered him?






I also have a feeling that justice was done because God has given us a knowledge of right and wrong although i also feel discomfort feeling glad someone was murdered.
I should'nt admit to that because i could be called a right wing extremist but i know i'm not , but if you really believe abortion is wrong then you know this guy would have gone on to abort thousands of additional fetuses.
I wonder how the other church members felt about him , his whole church membership and participation is almost unexplainable.

[Paidion]

I can understand the emotion that in the murder of the abortionist "justice was done". I think however that that is a the emotion of fallen humanity to desire vengeance on a murderer or other wrong doer. I think God's will was, and our will should have been, that Mr. Tiller should have repented, and become a disciple of Christ. Killing him ended his opportunity to do so. If we are happy that Mr. Tiller was murdered, then I think that in our hearts, we are as much a murderer as he.

I don't think God sent the murderer to bring about capital punishment to the abortionist. Nor do I think God is involved in every human decision, either actively or permissively. The last sentence in no way is meant to limit God. He is able to do what He wants in such situations. But apparently, He does not intervene in man's affairs very often. He MAY intervene when we ask Him to do so, but He usually does not do so. I think, that man, being given a free will like his Creator, is the chief way in which man was created in God's image, and that God has a lot of respect for that free will, and thus seldom intervenes in the exercise of it.

I have expressed this view in another thread, as some of you know, and have met strong opposition. However, I have not changed my mind. I think the idea that God is involved in every human decision poses far more and greater cognitive difficulties than the view I've just expressed.

[look2jesus]

I can understand the emotion that in the murder of the abortionist "justice was done". I think however that that is a the emotion of fallen humanity to desire vengeance on a murderer or other wrong doer. I think God's will was, and our will should have been, that Mr. Tiller should have repented, and become a disciple of Christ. Killing him ended his opportunity to do so. If we are happy that Mr. Tiller was murdered, then I think that in our hearts, we are as much a murderer as he.

I don't think God sent the murderer to bring about capital punishment to the abortionist.

This certainly is an interesting topic. Concerning this first paragraph I find that I must agree with you. I thought of Israel having to spend 430 years in Egypt so that, for one reason at least, the Canaanites would have time to repent of their ungodly lifestyles, but it seems apparent that God’s patience waned and he, at last, brought judgment on them using the Israelites as His instrument for doing so. We see the same thing repeated against various nations in the OT including Israel. In the NT it appears that the predictions we have concerning the destruction of Jerusalem, and its eventual fulfillment would fall into the same category (Compare 1Thes. 2:14-16).

However, there seems to be a difference between how God deals with nations, as opposed to how he deals with individuals. When God deals with certain individuals in the NT concerning judgment, we see more of a personal response from Him. I’m thinking of King Herod, Ananias and Sapphira, those who partake of the Lord’s Supper in an unworthy manner, etc. In these cases, it seems that God takes things into his own hands and deals in ways with these persons that show that it is by His power and control of things that judgment has been meted out.

All this is to say that I think I agree with you that in the case of the abortionist God did not use the killer to bring about His justice. Unfortunately, things in our society have become so convoluted that the proper authorities that have been given the responsibility of upholding justice, either refuse to or are not able to.

Nor do I think God is involved in every human decision, either actively or permissively...But apparently, He does not intervene in man's affairs very often.

As I was considering your thoughts here, Paul’s words, “In Him we live and move and have our being” came to mind, so I think that, at least in the most general sense, we must admit that God is involved to some degree in all that we do, but I know this is not what you are arguing against. By the use of the word “apparently” I can agree with you, but this only speaks to what we can see not to what we can know about God’s involvement, one way or the other.

He MAY intervene when we ask Him to do so, but He usually does not do so.

To say that He “usually” does not do so seems very subjective to me. In the cases in scripture where prayers are recorded for us it seems to me that in all cases God responded. Of course, we do not have for us recorded in scripture every prayer that was ever uttered. Still, are you speaking here of your own experience or of something else? I would have to disagree with your thrust here.

Now, concerning our free will and whether God allows us to act freely in it or somehow forces Himself in some way as to direct things, I find that, once again I must agree with you, in general. For instance, the story of Joseph and his brothers was brought up to prove that God sovereignly works out His will in all that happens. But I think their case is overstated. Take the brothers, for instance. The text doesn’t indicate that it was anything else but their hatred and jealousy of their brother that moved them to sell him off. The fact that God was able to turn the situation around for Joseph does not prove that God was the motivating force behind his brothers’ actions. This subject is so very wide and deep, given our limited knowledge and imagination of how God does in reality work “all things” according to the counsel of His will, that to my mind, we should be cautious about making dogmatic assertions in areas involving the mind and power of God.

Also, even in the case of new covenant believers, the fact that scripture indicates that there are rewards for “good behaviour” seems to indicate to me that God does expect us to be personally responsible for obedience to His commands. Yes, Paul did say, “not I, but the grace of God in me”, but that “grace” is available to all faithful servants, and still doesn’t answer the question, if God is simply, by fiat, working out His will through us, why we should earn any credit (rewards) at all.

I would be interested in hearing about these “cognitive difficulties”.

Thanks brother,

l2j

[Homer]

Paidion,

You wrote:

I can understand the emotion that in the murder of the abortionist "justice was done". I think however that that is a the emotion of fallen humanity to desire vengeance on a murderer or other wrong doer. I think God's will was, and our will should have been, that Mr. Tiller should have repented, and become a disciple of Christ. Killing him ended his opportunity to do so. If we are happy that Mr. Tiller was murdered, then I think that in our hearts, we are as much a murderer as he.

As noted in my original post, I was troubled by the feeling that Tiller received justice. And I must also say it would have been great news to hear instead that he had repented and ceased the slaughter of babies. But why should his death be any more, or as troubling than that of Ananias and Saphira?

And what of the cry of the Martyrs in Revelation 6? Are they exhibiting a trait of fallen humanity (vengeance) or are they crying out for justice? It seems that God has many times used fallen humans to execute His vengeance.

Revelation 6:9-10 (New King James Version)

9. When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Any comments on the excerpt of Hick's blog regarding concurrentism in my first post? It seems you have an almost post-modern view of God's activity within His creation.

[TK]

Yesterday in Canton, OH a man who was estranged from his wife went to pick up his 2 children, age 3 and 5 at the grandmothers house. he shot and killed the grandmother, then proceeded to slit the throats of his two children in the backseat of the car who were strapped in car seats. he surrendered himself when the police arrived.

These are the types of events I have a very hard time attributing to God.

TK

[Homer]

Hi TK!

But would you say that God was impotent to intervene? It would seem the best that could be said is that God was caught unaware. But then if He is all seeing, surely He could have intervened as He saw the event unfolding. Would you think there is no theodicy in this case?

As Hick's notes in His blog:

Defending God is not my job. Good thing because I would be awful at it. However, my faith does seek understanding; it looks for answers even when I cannot find them. Exploring the mysteries of divine providence and human suffering is a journey into the recesses of the divine mind and most of it is inaccessible to humans. So, the real question of providence and evil is not can we explain it but can God be trusted with the answer even when that answer is inexplicable or incomprehensible to us or when our best efforts ultimately just don’t make sense. I think the answer to that question is “Yes”.

I have Hick's book on God and suffering (His first wife died suddenly and then his son died of a genetic disorder). It is the best I have read on the subject, and an excellent study on Job. His book brought me to tears more than once. His blog is at:

http://johnmarkhicks.wordpress.com/

He is on a short sabbatical so the article on "Providence of God and Suffering: Can God be Trusted?" is near the top, and then the second blog down from it he discusses his thoughts about the death of his son.

The evil that occurred at Canton is no problem for Paidion because the providence of God requires that He be able to see the future.

[TK]

hey Homer-

i wouldnt say that God was impotent to intervene. Perhaps if people were praying for this family and this situation he WOULD have intervened. this is all very confusing to me. what i will NOT say is that God somehow intended what happened in Canton for good, or that it was His will that it happened. Now, if the surviving mother, because of what has happened, gets saved, becomes a great evangelist and brings thousands to Christ, then perhaps I could begin to maybe accept that God intended it for good, but even that would be a huge stretch.

TK

[Suzana]

then perhaps I could begin to maybe accept that God intended it for good, but even that would be a huge stretch.

I understand where this is coming from; I find it helpful to zoom out & remind myself of the even bigger picture - that God created us & placed us in this world, (with the devil allowed in it) in the first place. Did He intend to do this for good?
We only see or hear of a few of the atrocities that happen, but God sees all of them - and still allows things to continue.
I know God is good, therefore I have to accept that God knows what He's doing even if I don't understand how or why.

[kaufmannphillips]

Paidion wrote:
I think God's will was, and our will should have been, that Mr. Tiller should have repented, and become a disciple of Christ. Killing him ended his opportunity to do so. If we are happy that Mr. Tiller was murdered, then I think that in our hearts, we are as much a murderer as he.

I don't think God sent the murderer to bring about capital punishment to the abortionist. Nor do I think God is involved in every human decision, either actively or permissively. The last sentence in no way is meant to limit God. He is able to do what He wants in such situations. But apparently, He does not intervene in man's affairs very often. He MAY intervene when we ask Him to do so, but He usually does not do so. I think, that man, being given a free will like his Creator, is the chief way in which man was created in God's image, and that God has a lot of respect for that free will, and thus seldom intervenes in the exercise of it.

Does G-d allow any person to die if he believes that, given more time, the person might yet repent and come to participate in the world to come?