I wish I had more of the Holy Spirit of God.

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Allyn
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Re: I wish I had more of the Holy Spirit of God.

Post by Allyn » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:41 pm

darinhouston wrote:Do you suppose his faith came from the testing, or was shown from the testing? His initial response indicated he had a pretty strong faith already. Surely his faith grew from the experience, but it started out pretty sound. I wish I had even the faith he started with let alone the faith he ended up having.
Definitely.

I know from personal experience that my faith and endurance grows during each test. I must admit I do not always accept the test very readily and I wiggle around in it trying to excuse my way out. But soon after I settle in and take the ride to its completion. When I do it that way - and I had to learn to do it that way BTW - the ride is actually pretty enjoyable because I am then able to see the end result. Who likes being tested? Not me, but since I have to participate in it I might as well get all I can out of it.

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TK
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Re: I wish I had more of the Holy Spirit of God.

Post by TK » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:43 pm

I'll never understand the book of Job, ever.

Is there any chance it's a long parable? i know, i know. grasping at straws.

TK

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Paidion
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Re: I wish I had more of the Holy Spirit of God.

Post by Paidion » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:44 pm

TK, do you have any thoughts concerning God's purpose(s) for Job?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Michelle
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Re: I wish I had more of the Holy Spirit of God.

Post by Michelle » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:49 pm

Paidion wrote:TK, do you have any thoughts concerning God's purpose(s) for Job?
Paidion, are you asking about the man or the book? Either way, it's interesting to think about. Thanks.

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selah
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Re: I wish I had more of the Holy Spirit of God.

Post by selah » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:34 pm

Four thoughts about suffering:

(1) When I hear how others go through testing, it encourages me. For example, reading the lives of Reese Howell and Suzanna Wesley (two separate books) was for me, a mentoring experience. Also, when Steve Gregg told on the radio that he praised God the minute upon hearing that his wife was killed, I marveled. Maybe I am wrong about this, but I imagined that he must have been meditating upon passages like Phil. 4:4-8, and spending much time with the Lord to be able to respond/walk in the Spirit during such great loss.

(2) Once in a time of suffering, I persisted in prayer, supplication and thanksgiving. Though tears accompanied, I disciplined myself to sing praises to Him, to praise Him with His word and to sing more and... within three hours, a peace came over me that I could not explain. The situation was still grievous yet, my heart and mind seemed impenitrable because the peace was so sure.

(3) Job prayed for his friends (and for those who criticized him too). It seems to me that praying for those involved in our suffering seems crucial to our holding onto Christ's compassion toward them.

(4) "...Not forsaking the assembling together" (paraphrased) has in my opinion given the Holy Spirit an opportunity to speak into many discouraged believer's lives. Over and over, I have witnessed the edification of the saints because the downcast one was obedient to arrive for fellowship and the others present were obedient to encourage the saints.

Brody196, I think you have come to such a place.
:)
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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TK
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Re: I wish I had more of the Holy Spirit of God.

Post by TK » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 am

Job just doesn't sit well with me. Here's some of the story:
From Job 1:
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7 And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?”
So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”
9 So Satan answered the LORD and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
12 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”
So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

From Job 2:
1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?”
Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
3 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”
4 So Satan answered the LORD and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 5 But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
6 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.”
7 So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head. 8 And he took for himself a potsherd with which to scrape himself while he sat in the midst of the ashes.
9 Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast to your integrity? Curse God and die!”


It seems like God simply responded to being baited by Satan. In other words, it doesnt seem that Job did anything to deserve what he got, other than standing out as a righteous man. It seems to go against God's character to allow one of his subjects to be tortured emotionally and physically just to win a bet against Satan. It certainly would seem to go against the character of Jesus, and since Jesus is the exact representation of the Father (Heb 1:3), well. So while I understand that God can certainly do what He wants (He is God after all) that doesn't entirely square it with me.

I'm just being honest-- dont brand me a heretic.

TK

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TK
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Re: I wish I had more of the Holy Spirit of God.

Post by TK » Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:12 am

man- i forgot to use the verse tool. i will have to remember next time.

TK

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Homer
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Re: I wish I had more of the Holy Spirit of God.

Post by Homer » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:36 am

TK,

After Job's trials were over, do you think he was better off than before? And what an honor it was for God to have such confidence in Job. Satan, in effect, said "Job just loves you for what he gets" and God said "You just try my man Job and watch what he does!"

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darinhouston
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Re: I wish I had more of the Holy Spirit of God.

Post by darinhouston » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:47 am

SueAnn wrote:Four thoughts about suffering:

(1) When I hear how others go through testing, it encourages me. For example, reading the lives of Reese Howell and Suzanna Wesley (two separate books) was for me, a mentoring experience. Also, when Steve Gregg told on the radio that he praised God the minute upon hearing that his wife was killed, I marveled. Maybe I am wrong about this, but I imagined that he must have been meditating upon passages like Phil. 4:4-8, and spending much time with the Lord to be able to respond/walk in the Spirit during such great loss.

(2) Once in a time of suffering, I persisted in prayer, supplication and thanksgiving. Though tears accompanied, I disciplined myself to sing praises to Him, to praise Him with His word and to sing more and... within three hours, a peace came over me that I could not explain. The situation was still grievous yet, my heart and mind seemed impenitrable because the peace was so sure.

(3) Job prayed for his friends (and for those who criticized him too). It seems to me that praying for those involved in our suffering seems crucial to our holding onto Christ's compassion toward them.

(4) "...Not forsaking the assembling together" (paraphrased) has in my opinion given the Holy Spirit an opportunity to speak into many discouraged believer's lives. Over and over, I have witnessed the edification of the saints because the downcast one was obedient to arrive for fellowship and the others present were obedient to encourage the saints.

Brody196, I think you have come to such a place.
:)
I don't think Steve said he was "glad" to be in his loss. Having come near to losing my wife and going through a pretty long period of uncertainty and waiting on Doctors, procedures, etc., I now understand what it means to say that you gave God a "sacrifice of praise" and I am grateful now for that period of testing (and was during it also, but not in a gleeful way). I can only speak for myself, but the "discipline" you suggested you undertook to praise God in your circumstance seemed not out of joy, but out of worship -- that is where I was coming from anyway. I "purposed" myself to praise God in the midst of my suffering, and I grew in peace and comfort resulting from that. It wasn't the other way 'round (at least for me). I'm not sure I trust people who claim to just be glad to have troubles and have a reflexive praise and upbeat skipping along in the midst of trials -- I don't think they're in touch with themselves or their sorrow. Job praised and worshipped God, but there's every indication he had sorrow and grief as an honest response at the same time.

The best advice I received during my own trial was from one of our pastors -- he came to our house, could tell we were sort of feeling sorry for ourselves, and didn't just cry with us. Unlike Job's friends, he didn't tell us it was our fault, but did tell us that we had a responsibility to be used by God in the circumstance and that God wanted our response, itself, to be a shining example of our faith in Him. So, that completely changed our perspective and from the outset recognized that whatever happened, it was beyond what God had in store even to test "us." We who want to praise God in the midst of our suffering tend still to think our trials are only for our own benefit, but we may be the tools (like Job) God is using to demonstrate His power to others (perhaps including Satan).

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TK
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Re: I wish I had more of the Holy Spirit of God.

Post by TK » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:16 pm

Homer wrote:TK,

After Job's trials were over, do you think he was better off than before? And what an honor it was for God to have such confidence in Job. Satan, in effect, said "Job just loves you for what he gets" and God said "You just try my man Job and watch what he does!"
gee, Homer, I sure understand what you are saying. But look at what the poor guy had to go through. Job may have been better off in the end financially, etc. but he still had to lose all his children and suffer all those things over what seemed to be a wager. Looking back, I am sure he still grieved over his dead children, even though he had new ones to take their place.

I understand that we get better through suffering- I get that. Scripture is clear on that and I know it is true from experience.

What I don't get is the whole "set-up" to the Job story.

Do you think that God still does that kind of wagering with Satan today?

I think Satan does bring trials and sickness and death etc. That's what Satan does. But I dont think that Father/Jesus/HS is necessarily okay with that.

TK

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