Death Penalty For Homosexuals?

Discuss topics raised by callers on the radio program
User avatar
RND
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:56 pm
Location: Victorville, California, USA
Contact:

Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?

Post by RND » Thu Dec 25, 2008 8:13 pm

Suzana wrote:What does the phrase "the stranger that sojourneth with you" mean exactly? Did it apply to any visitors generally, or only those who had decided to make Israel their new home, (& thus be subject to its' laws), like Ruth? I can't imagine that the queen of Sheba for example would have been held accountable to the laws of Moses while visiting Solomon.
So let's assume for a second that the Queen of Sheba would have killed Soloman during her visit. Do you think there would have been no consequences for the Queen? What if she decided while visiting Soloman to have an affair with an animal (I know, gross. Used for example only). Do you think there would have been no consequences for the Queen?

The phrase "the stranger that sojourneth with you" applies to anyone who was within the gates of the Israelites, whether it was for an hour or a lifetime. The whole purpose was for the nation of Israel to expose other cultures to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Also, this same notion regarding strangers is still the basis for modern law in most countries. Someone visiting the United States, whether for a month or "just passing through," is subject to obey the laws of the land.

This study from a Messianic Jew might help:

The Law: For Jews only?
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?

Post by steve » Fri Dec 26, 2008 3:21 am

RND wrote:
FYI Steve, "Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I [am] the LORD your God." - Lev 24:22
The mosaic law governed only Israel. As Suzana pointed out, Gentiles were only required to keep the laws of Moses when they were encompassed within Israel's jurisdiction. The foreign slaves purchased by the Jews thereafter became a part of Israel by circumcision (Gen.17:13), thus assuming the obligation to keep all of Israel's laws (see Gal.5:3). The verses you cited indicate that a certain theocratic authority governed the whole land of Israel, and the society that resided within it. A stranger who came to settle in the land had to abide by the laws of the land, keeping the sabbath, the annual feasts, and avoiding blasphemy. This is just as I would have to abide by Mexican national laws, if I were to go and live there. However, the Mexicans do not require that all people everywhere live by the same laws as those in their country must observe. So also, God never expected the Philistines to be circumcised, nor the Babylonians to observe the sabbath. The mosaic law governed all of Israel, which included all within Israel's boundaries.

Homer wrote:
While the evangelical church is opposed to the secular society on the homosexual agenda, the church seems to not be any different than those outside of it regarding divorce.
I share your frustration completely.


Paidion wrote:
"Rather they indicate punishment and/or revenge, sometimes for no offence at all --- merely SUSPECTED offence."
This is not true. The law forbade that anyone be killed on mere suspicion. Except in the case where God Himself exposes the sinner—e.g., Achan (Josh.7) and the hypothetical woman who undergoes the ordeal of jealousy (Num.5:11-31), to which Paidion so often refers—the law required that none be punished upon anything less than the witness of two or more witnesses. Thus no one could ever be punished merely on suspicion.

I really wish, Paidion, that you would stop raising the red herring of drinking water with dust in it somehow naturally causing the symptoms of a swollen belly and a rotten thigh. There is absolutely no argument on your side of this particular issue. The ordeal of jealousy is clearly indicated to be a supernatural demonstration of guilt, when that cannot be verified by witnesses. Numbers 5:21 specifically says it is the Lord who causes the symptoms—though only if the party is guilty. In contrast to the scripture, you have claimed that God had nothing to do with this, that Moses made up this legislation (even though it begins with "the Lord spoke to Moses..."), and have claimed that there was some naturally-occurring substance in the dirt on the tabernacle floor, which, when added to water and ingested, will cause the outbreak of such the symptoms as are guaranteed in the ordeal.

I asked you in another post if you were aware of any virus or bacterium commonly occurring in Sinaitic desert soil, which causes these particular symptoms (swollen belly and rotting thigh). You have neglected to answer this matter though it is absolutely crucial to your point. Even if such a contaminant does exist (which I seriously doubt), how could Moses guarantee that this unusual factor would regularly be found on the floor of the tabernacle—the cleanest ground in the encampment, since no one could walk on it unless they first washed their feet at the laver? Since normal children are careless about eating with dirty hands, and even are known, not infrequently, to eat dirt, I wonder that swollen bellies and rotting thighs are not commonly seen among them. If there was something in the dirt that caused these symptoms, you have avoided identifying this in response to my challenges to you, on a previous thread, and you have not explained why it would only happen when the woman was guilty. A woman who had not committed adultery would be unaffected by the concoction. I really want you to provide some rational answers to these reasonable questions. If you continue to repeat this libel against God's law, beyond this point, without providing evidence and answers to these challenges, your honesty and submission to the truth of scripture will be greatly compromised in the eyes of those at this forum.

Paidion wrote:
"If she has committed adultery and if she repents, I must forgive her."
Of course you must! And you must forgive every other person their offenses against you, as well. That is clearly what Jesus taught. But that is irrelevant to the question raised in this thread. We are here talking about just and unjust civil penalties. If a man's wife commits adultery, he is very much at liberty to forgive her. However, forgiveness itself acknowledges there is guilt. We do not forgive innocent people. Forgiveness is an acknowledgment that guilt has been incurred and that the injured party is willing to forego the deserved retribution and penalties. What we are discussing here is what those penalties are—the ones from which the man is absolving his adulterous wife. When the crime is also a civil crime, however, though the injured party may forgive, the state has the duty to impose the just penalty. Exactly what penalties should justly be applied to which crimes is the specific question at issue here—not whether Christians should forgive those who injure them.

Paidion wrote:
I am quite certain that Paul had none of these practices in mind when he wrote that the commandments of the law are "holy, righteous, and good."
We all know that being quite certain of a thing does not guarantee that it is correct. In fact, Paul's statement was quite in keeping with his general belief that the law's listing of certain crimes as being "deserving of death" was a demonstration of the "righteous judgment of God" (Rom.1:32). These "righteous judgments" are found nowhere other than in the very laws that you wish to criticize. Paul and you simply disagree. I will continue to side with the principal spokesman that Christ authorized to teach the Gentile churches. I am not sure who you may be siding with in this rejection of the justice of God's laws.

SteveF

Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?

Post by SteveF » Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:38 am

steve wrote
The ordeal of jealousy is clearly indicated to be a supernatural demonstration of guilt, when that cannot be verified by witnesses. Numbers 5:21 specifically says it is the Lord who causes the symptoms—though only if the party is guilty.
I want share a subjective experience of a good friend of mine.

Many years ago his wife committed adultery. On the very night she committed the act my friend had a portion of scripture come strong into his mind. It was the jealousy passage in Numbers 5. He felt it was God bringing it to his mind but he thought it was a very obscure passage and wasn’t sure why God would bring it to his mind. I will not share what happened when his wife got home, since it’s a very personal situation, but he did find out what happened.

Knowing my friend, I’m strongly inclined to think this was God that brought it to his mind. If that’s the case then God doesn’t seem to be embarrassed by this passage in the slightest. I personally think the same God who revealed the situation to my friend is the same God who would sovereingly oversee the test specified in Numbers 5. IMHO.

User avatar
RND
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:56 pm
Location: Victorville, California, USA
Contact:

Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?

Post by RND » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:40 am

steve wrote:RND wrote:
FYI Steve, "Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I [am] the LORD your God." - Lev 24:22
The mosaic law governed only Israel. As Suzana pointed out, Gentiles were only required to keep the laws of Moses when they were encompassed within Israel's jurisdiction.
Really? Are you 100% sure about that Steve?

Were the people of Sodom and Gomorrah Israelites? If not, what "transgression" was the town involved in and what standard did God use to determine their destruction?
The foreign slaves purchased by the Jews thereafter became a part of Israel by circumcision (Gen.17:13), thus assuming the obligation to keep all of Israel's laws (see Gal.5:3).
What if one wanted to "voluntarily" become an Israelite? See Exodus 12.
The verses you cited indicate that a certain theocratic authority governed the whole land of Israel, and the society that resided within it. A stranger who came to settle in the land had to abide by the laws of the land, keeping the sabbath, the annual feasts, and avoiding blasphemy. This is just as I would have to abide by Mexican national laws, if I were to go and live there. However, the Mexicans do not require that all people everywhere live by the same laws as those in their country must observe.


"...a certain theocratic authority governed the whole land of Israel..." Wasn't that the whole idea Steve?
So also, God never expected the Philistines to be circumcised, nor the Babylonians to observe the sabbath. The mosaic law governed all of Israel, which included all within Israel's boundaries.
Just as it is today.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?

Post by steve » Fri Dec 26, 2008 3:17 pm

RND,

I have to say that I don't quite know what you are getting at with some of your points. However, on the Sodom and Gomorrah issue, they were not under Israel's laws, partly because they were not Israelites, and partly because there was no Israel in their time, nor Israelite laws.
Last edited by steve on Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
RND
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:56 pm
Location: Victorville, California, USA
Contact:

Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?

Post by RND » Fri Dec 26, 2008 3:30 pm

steve wrote:RND,

I have to say tat I don't quite know what you are getting at with some of your points.
I'm sorry Steve I try to make myself as plain as possible. Sometimes the written word just doesn't equal the spoken.
However, on the Sodom and Gomorrah issue, they were not under Israel's laws, partly because they were not Israelites, and partly becaise there was no Israel in their time, nor Israelite laws.
Who's law or better yet, what law, were the people of Sodom and Gomorrah subject to then?

Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom [were] wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

If "sin" is the transgression of the "law" what "law" were the folks of Sodom and Gomorrah guilty of transgressing? What standard then did God use to judge Sodom and Gomorrah with? Perhaps His own standard?

If the men of Sodom and Gomorrah we're looking to "sex-up" male angels then obviously they were engaged in "homosexuality" before the Mosaic law was written down. Tell me something Steve, do you think God made up the Mosaic law as it was being written down or has it always been part of His government?
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?

Post by steve » Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:10 pm

The people of Sodom, and all people who have never been given any other law by God, are no doubt judged by what is often called "the law of [human] nature." Though the scriptures do not really talk about this law (since they were written to people who had access to the revealed law), it would seem that God judged the antediluvians, the Sodomites, the Babylonians and others for violations of human decency, and assumed that they knew such things by nature. Otherwise, there would be no reason for God to hold their behavior against them.

The laws of Israel, on the other hand, were freighted with ceremonial requirements that the "law of nature" would never teach a man—e.g., sabbath observance, ceremonial washings, dietary restrictions, etc. There is certainly overlap between the moral laws of Israel and the "law of nature." However, only Israel was judged by Israel's laws. Other nations were judged by universal laws. There is no evidence that Sodom was judged for eating pork or for violating the sabbath.

Blessings!

Steve


P.S. I have corrected my spelling on my previous post. was called away for lunch while writing it, and posted it without checking for typos.

SteveF

Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?

Post by SteveF » Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:26 pm

P.S. I have corrected my spelling on my previous post. was called away for lunch while writing it, and posted it without checking for typos.
:)

I think we can all relate to that today! Between my posts I've played two board games, gone for a walk, had lunch and watched half of a Disney movie.

User avatar
RND
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:56 pm
Location: Victorville, California, USA
Contact:

Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?

Post by RND » Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:37 pm

steve wrote:The people of Sodom, and all people who have never been given any other law by God, are no doubt judged by what is often called "the law of [human] nature." Though the scriptures do not really talk about this law (since they were written to people who had access to the revealed law), it would seem that God judged the antediluvians, the Sodomites, the Babylonians and others for violations of human decency, and assumed that they knew such things by nature. Otherwise, there would be no reason for God to hold their behavior against them.
Um, wouldn't that mean that God judge by His standards and not "the law of [human] nature?"
The laws of Israel, on the other hand, were freighted with ceremonial requirements that the "law of nature" would never teach a man—e.g., sabbath observance,


The sabbath came before the 'law' not after.
ceremonial washings,
Talmud.
dietary restrictions, etc.


Was Noah an Israelite?
There is certainly overlap between the moral laws of Israel and the "law of nature." However, only Israel was judged by Israel's laws. Other nations were judged by universal laws. There is no evidence that Sodom was judged for eating pork or for violating the sabbath.
Who was the "author" of the "universal laws?"
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?

Post by steve » Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:05 pm

RND,

Those who speak of the "law of nature" are not trying to distinguish it from God's standards. The assumption is that the law of nature is the same as God's standards of behavior, because it is God who installed this code in human beings.

You say that the sabbath preceded the law. To be more accurate, we should say that the command to observe sabbath was given after the exodus, and was incorporated into the law given at Sinai. The sabbath is mentioned in Genesis 2, but there is no record of God requiring anyone to keep it until Exodus 16.

Post Reply

Return to “Radio Program Topics”