Death Penalty For Homosexuals?
Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?
You know, it cracks me up when I see Christians embrace some parts of the Torah to suit their own agenda yet denying other parts that simply don't suit their needs. Homosexuality is one such statute.
I think one could just as easily imagine themselves in place of the woman taken in adultery. A crowd gathered around any one of us was ready to stone us for our sins. Heck, we see this routinely anyway whenever we what the evening news. What are you 'guilty' of that deserves death by stoning from an angry mob? Adultery? Stealing? Lying? Coveting your neighbors goods? Homosexuality? Abortion? Drug addiction? Wife beating? We could come up with quite a list I'm sure.
It's funny how many of us walk around as if there weren't any mirrors in our houses! Thank you Father for not making me like THAT guy!
In the prison ministry I'm a part of we had a similar conversation regarding abortion very recently. In John 8 it is the woman that was accused, yet no man to be found. Absolutely no different than what we see regarding today's condition of abortion. Accuse the woman, no man to be found. I'm all in favor of abortion, provided the man responsible for it is castrated in the process! That would single-handedly end the unnecessary and wasteful practice of abortion practically overnight. And yet, when we look at the Torah and the Mosaic law the revelation that God knew what He was talking about regarding premarital sex becomes crystal clear.
Deu 22:28 If a man find a damsel [that is] a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty [shekels] of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
We ask four questions to the new prisoners of our group that are intended to reach the very core of their beliefs systems that pertain to them and prison life. And yet, these four questions just as applicable to the prisoners on the 'outside' of the prison walls:
The Four Questions by Keith Johnson
1.) What if I told you that your youngest child was murdered? Would you want mercy or justice for the perpetrator?
2.) What if I told you that the murderer was your oldest child? Would you want mercy or justice for the perpetrator?
3.) What if I told you that you are guilty of the murder of the only begotten Son of God? Would you want mercy or justice as the perpetrator?
4.) What if I told you that you had a daughter, your only daughter, the apple of your eye, who has never given you a moment’s grief. Tonight, you have your tux hanging in the closet, because tomorrow you are scheduled to walk your daughter down the aisle and give her away to someone whom you approve? If you’re the mother, you have your new dress hanging next to the gown that you have been planning and preparing for since the first time she held her in her arms. But tonight, your daughter is at a bachelorette party with her peers and they talk her into having “one-for-the-road,” the first ever in her life. Two, three, four, five, six, seven (drinks) later, while on her way home, she wipes out a school bus full of little children on their way to camp. Everybody aboard the bus dies in a fiery inferno, but you daughter survives. Do you want mercy or justice for your daughter (?) and what do those that are related to those who were on bus want?
The moral of the story is…
The carnal heart has an ingrained sense of justice as long as it doesn’t apply to them or theirs. That is self-righteousness and hypocrisy! Furthermore, Satan knows that God will only forgive us according to our willingness to forgive others. The irony of the whole thing is – “we’re all family.”
As we have received God’s mercy – so are we to bestow the same mercy towards others. “Freely you have received, freely give.” We can hate the sin, but we must love the sinner for “we war not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities in high places.”
by Keith A. Johnson – September 7, 2001 ©
I think one could just as easily imagine themselves in place of the woman taken in adultery. A crowd gathered around any one of us was ready to stone us for our sins. Heck, we see this routinely anyway whenever we what the evening news. What are you 'guilty' of that deserves death by stoning from an angry mob? Adultery? Stealing? Lying? Coveting your neighbors goods? Homosexuality? Abortion? Drug addiction? Wife beating? We could come up with quite a list I'm sure.
It's funny how many of us walk around as if there weren't any mirrors in our houses! Thank you Father for not making me like THAT guy!
In the prison ministry I'm a part of we had a similar conversation regarding abortion very recently. In John 8 it is the woman that was accused, yet no man to be found. Absolutely no different than what we see regarding today's condition of abortion. Accuse the woman, no man to be found. I'm all in favor of abortion, provided the man responsible for it is castrated in the process! That would single-handedly end the unnecessary and wasteful practice of abortion practically overnight. And yet, when we look at the Torah and the Mosaic law the revelation that God knew what He was talking about regarding premarital sex becomes crystal clear.
Deu 22:28 If a man find a damsel [that is] a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty [shekels] of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
We ask four questions to the new prisoners of our group that are intended to reach the very core of their beliefs systems that pertain to them and prison life. And yet, these four questions just as applicable to the prisoners on the 'outside' of the prison walls:
The Four Questions by Keith Johnson
1.) What if I told you that your youngest child was murdered? Would you want mercy or justice for the perpetrator?
2.) What if I told you that the murderer was your oldest child? Would you want mercy or justice for the perpetrator?
3.) What if I told you that you are guilty of the murder of the only begotten Son of God? Would you want mercy or justice as the perpetrator?
4.) What if I told you that you had a daughter, your only daughter, the apple of your eye, who has never given you a moment’s grief. Tonight, you have your tux hanging in the closet, because tomorrow you are scheduled to walk your daughter down the aisle and give her away to someone whom you approve? If you’re the mother, you have your new dress hanging next to the gown that you have been planning and preparing for since the first time she held her in her arms. But tonight, your daughter is at a bachelorette party with her peers and they talk her into having “one-for-the-road,” the first ever in her life. Two, three, four, five, six, seven (drinks) later, while on her way home, she wipes out a school bus full of little children on their way to camp. Everybody aboard the bus dies in a fiery inferno, but you daughter survives. Do you want mercy or justice for your daughter (?) and what do those that are related to those who were on bus want?
The moral of the story is…
The carnal heart has an ingrained sense of justice as long as it doesn’t apply to them or theirs. That is self-righteousness and hypocrisy! Furthermore, Satan knows that God will only forgive us according to our willingness to forgive others. The irony of the whole thing is – “we’re all family.”
As we have received God’s mercy – so are we to bestow the same mercy towards others. “Freely you have received, freely give.” We can hate the sin, but we must love the sinner for “we war not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities in high places.”
by Keith A. Johnson – September 7, 2001 ©
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary
You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary
Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?
Despite what each of us feels in terms of sympathy for criminals, there is a need for an institution, ordained by God, to maintain civil order in human societies. Paul and Peter both tell us that God has ordained such an institution to be a servant of God in its administration of just penalties for crimes (Rom.13:1-7/ 1 Peter 2:13-14). If there is no penalty attached to committing acts of murder, rape and kidnapping, the anarchy that results would not resemble anything that God intended in creating human society.
The civil justice code that God gave to Israel is, according to Paul, "holy, just and good." It would seem that it contains the directions for ruling magistrates in that it assigns the most just penalties to each crime. Christians are required to show mercy to those who victimize them, but the state, according to Paul and Peter, is not ordained to show mercy, but to punish criminals. The inability to see the difference between the roles of the church and of the state has left many Christians confused—sometimes leading them to advocate that the law courts should follow the Sermon on the Mount (which Jesus taught to His disciples, not to the magistrates), the doing of which would require that there be no penalties for any crimes. If the courts followed Jesus' sermon, and a rapist was hauled before a judge, instead of punishing him, the judge ought to say, "Okay, you raped this woman? Here is her sister. Rape her as well."
In determining from God's law what justice demands (not that I will ever be one who administrates law court justice) I do not take God's laws arbitrarily. I do not believe there is any inconsistency in requiring the death penalty for murder, but not for lying or stealing. God's law does not indicate that stealing and lying are capital crimes. The Law actually is very detailed in spelling out the justice of certain penalties for certain actions. In fact, God expected the justice of Israel's legal system to be so self-evidently just that the other nations would marvel in admiration. Moses said:
Surely I have taught you statutes and judgments, just as the LORD my God commanded me, that you should act according to them in the land which you go to possess. Therefore be careful to observe them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes, and say, 'Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.' For what great nation is there that has God so near to it, as the LORD our God is to us, for whatever reason we may call upon Him? And what great nation is there that has such statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day? (Deut.4:5-8)
I believe in a just society—and I believe in God dealing justly with me. If my children (or I) were to commit a crime, I would expect and submit to the justice of the courts. Why should I or my kin be exempt? As for my expectations before God, since there is one who has taken my penalties upon HImself, I do not expect to bear them myself. Double jeopardy is not justice. If Jesus had not died for me, I would expect to pay the penalties for my own misdeeds.
Justice is the most loving policy, which is why God demands it. It is God's prerogative to show mercy, but it is not the prerogative of the courts to neglect their duties. If we try to apply mercy to the criminal justice system, we end up victimizing someone other than the criminal. In Sweden, murderers get out of prison in about two years. That is their idea of a merciful penal system. The future victims of those released murderers may question how this penalty can be regarded as merciful.
Actions have consequences. If my daughter, God forbid, were to kill a busload of school children because of her own criminal behavior, I would of course still love my daughter, but I would see not reason why the laws against drunk driving should be relaxed simply because the perpetrator is someone dear to me. I still believe that justice should be impartial. If it is not, it will always be unjust.
The civil justice code that God gave to Israel is, according to Paul, "holy, just and good." It would seem that it contains the directions for ruling magistrates in that it assigns the most just penalties to each crime. Christians are required to show mercy to those who victimize them, but the state, according to Paul and Peter, is not ordained to show mercy, but to punish criminals. The inability to see the difference between the roles of the church and of the state has left many Christians confused—sometimes leading them to advocate that the law courts should follow the Sermon on the Mount (which Jesus taught to His disciples, not to the magistrates), the doing of which would require that there be no penalties for any crimes. If the courts followed Jesus' sermon, and a rapist was hauled before a judge, instead of punishing him, the judge ought to say, "Okay, you raped this woman? Here is her sister. Rape her as well."
In determining from God's law what justice demands (not that I will ever be one who administrates law court justice) I do not take God's laws arbitrarily. I do not believe there is any inconsistency in requiring the death penalty for murder, but not for lying or stealing. God's law does not indicate that stealing and lying are capital crimes. The Law actually is very detailed in spelling out the justice of certain penalties for certain actions. In fact, God expected the justice of Israel's legal system to be so self-evidently just that the other nations would marvel in admiration. Moses said:
Surely I have taught you statutes and judgments, just as the LORD my God commanded me, that you should act according to them in the land which you go to possess. Therefore be careful to observe them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes, and say, 'Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.' For what great nation is there that has God so near to it, as the LORD our God is to us, for whatever reason we may call upon Him? And what great nation is there that has such statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day? (Deut.4:5-8)
I believe in a just society—and I believe in God dealing justly with me. If my children (or I) were to commit a crime, I would expect and submit to the justice of the courts. Why should I or my kin be exempt? As for my expectations before God, since there is one who has taken my penalties upon HImself, I do not expect to bear them myself. Double jeopardy is not justice. If Jesus had not died for me, I would expect to pay the penalties for my own misdeeds.
Justice is the most loving policy, which is why God demands it. It is God's prerogative to show mercy, but it is not the prerogative of the courts to neglect their duties. If we try to apply mercy to the criminal justice system, we end up victimizing someone other than the criminal. In Sweden, murderers get out of prison in about two years. That is their idea of a merciful penal system. The future victims of those released murderers may question how this penalty can be regarded as merciful.
Actions have consequences. If my daughter, God forbid, were to kill a busload of school children because of her own criminal behavior, I would of course still love my daughter, but I would see not reason why the laws against drunk driving should be relaxed simply because the perpetrator is someone dear to me. I still believe that justice should be impartial. If it is not, it will always be unjust.
Last edited by steve on Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?
The last 6 commandments deal with how men are to interact with others.steve wrote:Despite what each of us feels in terms of sympathy for criminals, there is a need for an institution, ordained by God, to maintain civil order in human societies. Paul and Peter both tell us that God has ordained such an institution to be a servant of God in its administration of just penalties for crimes (Rom.13:1-7/ 1 Peter 2:13-14). If there is no penalty attached to committing acts of murder, rape and kidnapping, the anarchy that results would not resemble anything that God intended in creating human society.
Agreed. However Jesus didn't just teach His disciples with the Sermon on the Mount, He did in fact teach the multitudes. But even more to the point if one claims to be a disciple of Christ Steve is that everything mentioned in this Sermon applies to you and me.The civil justice code that God gave to Israel is, according to Paul, "holy, just and good." It would seem that it contains the directions for ruling magistrates in that it assigns the most just penalties to each crime. Christians are required to show mercy to those who victimize them, but the state, according to Paul and Peter, is not ordained to show mercy, but to punish criminals. The inability to see the difference between the roles of the church and of the state has left many Christians confused—sometimes leading them to advocate that the law courts should follow the sermon on the mount (which Jesus taught to His disciples, not to the magistrates), the doing of which would require that there be no penalties for any crimes. If a rapist was hauled before a judge, instead of punishing him, the judge ought to say, "Okay, you raped this woman? Here is her sister. Rape her as well."
Thoughts From the Mount of Blessing
"More than fourteen centuries before Jesus was born in Bethlehem, the children of Israel gathered in the fair vale of Shechem, and from the mountains on either side the voices of the priests were heard proclaiming the blessings and the curses--"a blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God: . . . and a curse, if ye will not obey." Deuteronomy 11:27, 28. And thus the mountain from which the words of benediction were spoken came to be known as the mount of blessing. But it was not upon Gerizim that the words were spoken which have come as a benediction to a sinning and sorrowing world. Israel fell short of the high ideal which had been set before her. Another than Joshua must guide His people to the true rest of faith. No longer is Gerizim known as the mount of the Beatitudes, but that unnamed mountain beside the Lake of Gennesaret, where Jesus spoke the words of blessing to His disciples and the multitude." {MB 1.1}
"Throughout all time the words that Christ spoke from the mount of Beatitudes will retain their power. Every sentence is a jewel from the treasure house of truth. The principles enunciated in this discourse are for all ages and for all classes of men. With divine energy, Christ expressed His faith and hope as He pointed out class after class as blessed because of having formed righteous characters. Living the life of the Life-giver, through faith in Him, everyone can reach the standard held up in His words."
I think you are missing the point Steve. God has victims to deal with and perpetrators to deal with. And yet, so do we. We are perpetrators of sin which cause others to be victims. And yet, we are victims of sin by the acts of others. No one is immune. If that was your daughter that killed a busload of children no one is suggesting that justice not be served, the point of the analogy is to first get prisoners to understand that we are all members of the same family and that your sin, and that of your daughter's effects others - including yourself. When I see a another woman suffering for her wrong am I not to be compassionate for her? One can forgive while justice is still being meted out. God does it all the time.Actions have consequences. If my daughter, God forbid, were to kill a busload of school children because of her own criminal behavior, I would of course still love my daughter, but I would see not reason why the laws against drunk driving should be relaxed simply because the perpetrator is someone dear to me. I still believe that justice should be impartial. If it is not, it will always be unjust.
BTW, in the analogy Abel and Cain are the two dealt with in 1 and 2. What does God want? How was God effected?
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary
You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary
Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?
Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.The civil justice code that God gave to Israel is, according to Paul, "holy, just and good."
I doubt that "the law" of which Paul is speaking here was the "civil justice code that God gave to Israel."
If it is, then it's HOLY, JUST, AND GOOD to stone mediums to death (Lev. 20:7), to stone to death those who gather sticks on the Sabbath day (Num. 15:35), to stone to death stubborn and rebellious sons (Deut. 21:18-21), to stone to death a young bride who does not have evidence of her virginity ( Deut 22:20-21), to stone to death adulterers (Deut 22:22 ).
Also implied: If a spirit of jealousy comes upon a man, it is HOLY, JUST, AND GOOD to test the wife to see if the man's jealousy is justified, by giving her water that causes the belly to swell and the thigh rot. (Num. 5:14-22 )
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?
Paidion,
We have gone down this road at least twice previously, and I will not be led there again. I have answered you on these points already, and our fundamental difference remains the same—namely, that I believe in the inspiration of the Torah (as Jesus and the apostles did), and you apparently do not. I will agree to disagree with you, but I do not know where you derive your authority to judge the Torah, in disagreement with those who actually saw and were chosen by Jesus—whose judgment I would trust above either yours or my own.
We have gone down this road at least twice previously, and I will not be led there again. I have answered you on these points already, and our fundamental difference remains the same—namely, that I believe in the inspiration of the Torah (as Jesus and the apostles did), and you apparently do not. I will agree to disagree with you, but I do not know where you derive your authority to judge the Torah, in disagreement with those who actually saw and were chosen by Jesus—whose judgment I would trust above either yours or my own.
Last edited by steve on Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?
RND , could you expound your thought a little? I'm not quite sure what you were trying to say. Thanks.steve wrote:
Despite what each of us feels in terms of sympathy for criminals, there is a need for an institution, ordained by God, to maintain civil order in human societies. Paul and Peter both tell us that God has ordained such an institution to be a servant of God in its administration of just penalties for crimes (Rom.13:1-7/ 1 Peter 2:13-14). If there is no penalty attached to committing acts of murder, rape and kidnapping, the anarchy that results would not resemble anything that God intended in creating human society.
RND replied
The last 6 commandments deal with how men are to interact with others.
Just to clarify, were you simply reiterating Steve's underlined point to show agreement or were you making a further point? i.e. civil governments (multitude) should be following the sermon on the mount. Sorry, my thinking must be a little groggy this morning!Steve wrote
The civil justice code that God gave to Israel is, according to Paul, "holy, just and good." It would seem that it contains the directions for ruling magistrates in that it assigns the most just penalties to each crime. Christians are required to show mercy to those who victimize them, but the state, according to Paul and Peter, is not ordained to show mercy, but to punish criminals. The inability to see the difference between the roles of the church and of the state has left many Christians confused—sometimes leading them to advocate that the law courts should follow the sermon on the mount (which Jesus taught to His disciples, not to the magistrates), the doing of which would require that there be no penalties for any crimes. If a rapist was hauled before a judge, instead of punishing him, the judge ought to say, "Okay, you raped this woman? Here is her sister. Rape her as well."
RND replied
Agreed. However Jesus didn't just teach His disciples with the Sermon on the Mount, He did in fact teach the multitudes. But even more to the point if one claims to be a disciple of Christ Steve is that everything mentioned in this Sermon applies to you and me.

- darinhouston
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Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?
Then to which law does he refer in your opinion?Paidion wrote: I doubt that "the law" of which Paul is speaking here was the "civil justice code that God gave to Israel."
Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?
Sure Steve. The first 4 commandments deal with how we should interact with God and to prepare oneself for service in His Government. The last 6 commandments deal with how man is to deal with his fellow man and give instruction as how to deal with man's government.RND , could you expound your thought a little? I'm not quite sure what you were trying to say. Thanks.SteveF wrote:steve wrote:
Despite what each of us feels in terms of sympathy for criminals, there is a need for an institution, ordained by God, to maintain civil order in human societies. Paul and Peter both tell us that God has ordained such an institution to be a servant of God in its administration of just penalties for crimes (Rom.13:1-7/ 1 Peter 2:13-14). If there is no penalty attached to committing acts of murder, rape and kidnapping, the anarchy that results would not resemble anything that God intended in creating human society.
RND replied
The last 6 commandments deal with how men are to interact with others.
I wasn't as clear as I should have been.
Yeah, I was agreeing with Steve's underlined point. Government's exact the penalty for violating the rules of God's government.Just to clarify, were you simply reiterating Steve's underlined point to show agreement or were you making a further point? i.e. civil governments (multitude) should be following the sermon on the mount. Sorry, my thinking must be a little groggy this morning!Steve wrote
The civil justice code that God gave to Israel is, according to Paul, "holy, just and good." It would seem that it contains the directions for ruling magistrates in that it assigns the most just penalties to each crime. Christians are required to show mercy to those who victimize them, but the state, according to Paul and Peter, is not ordained to show mercy, but to punish criminals. The inability to see the difference between the roles of the church and of the state has left many Christians confused—sometimes leading them to advocate that the law courts should follow the sermon on the mount (which Jesus taught to His disciples, not to the magistrates), the doing of which would require that there be no penalties for any crimes. If a rapist was hauled before a judge, instead of punishing him, the judge ought to say, "Okay, you raped this woman? Here is her sister. Rape her as well."
RND replied
Agreed. However Jesus didn't just teach His disciples with the Sermon on the Mount, He did in fact teach the multitudes. But even more to the point if one claims to be a disciple of Christ Steve is that everything mentioned in this Sermon applies to you and me.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary
You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary
Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?
Now I have to claim I wasn't as clear as I should have beenSteveF wrote:
steve wrote:
Despite what each of us feels in terms of sympathy for criminals, there is a need for an institution, ordained by God, to maintain civil order in human societies. Paul and Peter both tell us that God has ordained such an institution to be a servant of God in its administration of just penalties for crimes (Rom.13:1-7/ 1 Peter 2:13-14). If there is no penalty attached to committing acts of murder, rape and kidnapping, the anarchy that results would not resemble anything that God intended in creating human society.
RND replied
The last 6 commandments deal with how men are to interact with others.
RND , could you expound your thought a little? I'm not quite sure what you were trying to say. Thanks.
Sure Steve. The first 4 commandments deal with how we should interact with God and to prepare oneself for service in His Government. The last 6 commandments deal with how man is to deal with his fellow man and give instruction as how to deal with man's government.
I wasn't as clear as I should have been.

Re: Death Penalty For Homosexuals?
No sweat. When Steve made mention that, "If there is no penalty attached to committing acts of murder, rape and kidnapping, the anarchy that results would not resemble anything that God intended in creating human society" the first thing that came to my mind was the relevance of those last 6 commandments are to our lives today, just as they were "before" they were written down, yet these commandments were still part of the the design for God's will.SteveF wrote:Now I have to claim I wasn't as clear as I should have been. I picked up on your distiction of the commandments but I didn't understand the relevance of your point in response to Steve.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary
You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary