Calvinism and Universalism

[steve7150]

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; God, and [there is] none like me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:


Here God declares what will happen and closes by saying "I will do all my pleasure" which sounds to me like he will intervene to make sure he gets his desired end. Where is foreknowledge here verses his power to intercede and cause events to actually happen at critical points?
And knowing Adam would sin is rather simple considering Adam and Eve were innocent , had no experience with evil and were up against the master deceiver of the universe. And if they would have passed this test perhaps God would have kept testing them.

If it is true that the details of the future are actually unknowable because it does'nt yet exist , i think it makes everything more interesting and dynamic rather then taking anything away from God's power.

[RND]

Here God declares what will happen and closes by saying "I will do all my pleasure" which sounds to me like he will intervene to make sure he gets his desired end. Where is foreknowledge here verses his power to intercede and cause events to actually happen at critical points?

If God has plans to head to the beach one summer afternoon wouldn't that be considered "foreknowledge" of His plan or purpose? If you can have a glimpse of such a revelation as foreknowledge about your plans why can't God? Of course, the difference is that God knows how His day will end....you don't.

And knowing Adam would sin is rather simple considering Adam and Eve were innocent, had no experience with evil and were up against the master deceiver of the universe. And if they would have passed this test perhaps God would have kept testing them.

I can't say it was a "test" frankly. I see God's admonition to Adam in the garden as a "warning" much like "look both ways before you cross the street." Some see it as a threat.

If it is true that the details of the future are actually unknowable because it does'nt yet exist , i think it makes everything more interesting and dynamic rather then taking anything away from God's power.

For you that may be true. But God's ways are not our ways so we don't know specifically what causes Him more interest. But I would say in that He tenderly cares for each and everyone on earth, we are obviously one of His main interests. If He can count the number of hairs on your head He certainly can count the hairs on the head of a bushman from the Kalahari.

[Paidion]

It is interesting the direction a thread can take. The title of this thread is "Calvinism and Universalism". Now it has evolved into a discussion of open theism versus the self-contradictory concept of God having exhaustive knowledge of the future. Fascinating, indeed!

Although there's nothing wrong with the thread side-tracking into this topic, I think the discussion belongs in the doctrinal Topic:
Calvinism, Arminianism, & Open Theism.

When I get the time, I hope to reopen the discussion with a post in that area that summarizes the arguments for open theism. I have held the position long before I ever heard of open theism. In those days, I thought I was the only one who believed such things. Although, I shared my belief with a few people, they looked at me as if I were the worst of heretics. I am not sure why there is such an aversion to the idea that, although God is omniscient, there is no "knowing" of that in which there is nothing to be known. However, I am sure many thoughts, ideas, and concepts will emerge in the thread which I hope to start.

[RND]

....open theism versus the self-contradictory concept of God having exhaustive knowledge of the future....

God did create time did He not?

[Paidion]

He did not. What we call "time" is not "something" that needs to be created. It is a measurement of the occurrences of events. No events no time. When the first two events occurred, time, of necessity, came into being.

I suppose one could stretch it a bit, by saying that the fact that God performed the first two acts that were ever performed, He, of necessity, "created" time in performing these acts.

Here's a little analogy. If you "create" an equilateral triangle, you, of necessity, have also "created" an equi-angular triangle.

[RND]

He did not. Time is not "something" that needs to be created. It is a measurement of the occurences of events.

Well, there's your answer then. Time was indeed created using light and dark.

Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

The seven day week should be proof alone that God created time.

[Paidion]

WHAT!!! You really believe that Rev 10:6 states that time will cease and "eternity" will begin?

Read it in context. It simply means that there will no longer be any delay until the mystery of God should be fulfilled! Thankfully, many translators render it this way:

And the angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay, but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets. Rev 10:5-7 ESV

Other translations which render it as "no more delay" are RSV, NRSV, Rotherham, Darby, Wey, Phillips, NIV, NKJV, and GWN.

How does the 7-day week relate to "the creation of time"? How would matters have been any different if God had chosen an 8-day week, and asked the Israelites to observe the Sabbath on the 8th day? The week is the one unit of time measurement which is wholly unrelated to the movement of the heavenly bodies.

[RND]

WHAT!!! You really believe that Rev 10:6 states that time will cease and "eternity" will begin?

No, no I quoted it for the fact that the angels says, undeniably, that God created everything in heaven, in the earth, and in the sea. Time can be found In heaven, in the earth, and in the sea.

"...he (the Angel) swore an oath in the name of the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it..."

Now maybe you could give a slight dissertation on the seven-day week and how nothing in celestial time matches up with it.

[Paidion]

Now maybe you could give a slight dissertation on the seven-day week and how nothing in celestial time matches up with it.

I will do so after you first back up, either scripturally or logically, your statement:

"The seven day week should be proof alone that God created time."

[RND]

Now maybe you could give a slight dissertation on the seven-day week and how nothing in celestial time matches up with it.

I will do so after you first back up, either scripturally or logically, your statement:

"The seven day week should be proof alone that God created time."

See Genesis 1.

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

God "spoke" light into existence and "divided" the light from the darkness. Then He called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. Am I missing something here Paidon or did not God create light by "speaking" it into existence? Did He not begin the process of the moon circling the earth, the earth circling the sun, the sun and it's circuit and so on? Before the earth was created it was without form and void, no light of day, no stars of night.

Psa 19:1 [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 Which [is] as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, [and] rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6 His going forth [is] from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was [done]; he commanded, and it stood fast.

Maybe David was mistaken and God was just "lucky."

You know Paidon, had you said that time is only relative on earth I'd have gladly agreed with you.

John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

No sun no light, no light, no day. No moon no month, no month no year. Time is completely dependent on that which was made.

Isa 40:21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? 22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: