Is a Fetus/Newborn a Spiritual Being?

[darinhouston]

We have a friend who just lost their newborn baby -- (See post here: http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=2364)

The church service was Lutheran, and they were very upfront that the ONLY basis for the baby being with Jesus was that it was baptized. Catholic friends were in attendance, and were amazed and rejoicing that a protestant church could have such solid doctrine. All I could do was gag because it's just not the place to discuss such things, and the subject always seems to come up (why my baby isn't baptized, for example) in informal social settings where we wouldn't be able to discuss it in detail.

I'm convinced that baptism isn't the basis for baby salvation, but what a waste it seems for God to create a life to cut it short like that and have it "bypass" this created order and go straight to heaven. It got me to thinking whether life really does begin at conception. I do believe life is sanctified, and whether or not a fetus or even newborn baby has a soul/spirit we should respect the "life" it represents and not interfere with what God has dominion over (through abortion, for example). So, this isn't an abortion inquiry. It's really about God's economy.

Seriously, is there any scriptural basis to believe that spiritual life begins at conception? We do know that Jacob and Essau were said to have had no sin in the womb, so at least we know that original sin doesn't taint a fetus at least before delivery. Is it biblically possible that God "assigns" a spirit/soul to the created flesh some time following delivery?

I do seem to see an "awakening" of personality even with my 4 week old, though I recognize we can't equate personality with spirituality. No one who has had a long-time pet dog can deny that dogs have a personality, but I don't see how they can have a "spirit" to fellowship with God in the spiritual realm.

Thoughts? Ideas?

[Suzana]

Well, at Creation, it implies that man became a living soul only at the time when life was given to him, which makes me think that if a baby is alive in the womb, it is already a soul.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

In Job, it seems that when he was wishing he had died at birth, there was already a 'ghost to give up' present in the baby, and he would have gone to join others resting after they died:

Job 3:11 (KJV) Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
14 With kings and counsellors of the earth,...


Job 3:16 or as a hidden untimely birth I would not have been, like infants who did not see light.
On the other hand, this verse implies that if he had been aborted prematurely, he would not have existed. Which I find surprising.

However:

Luke 1:41 (KJV) And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost...
44 "For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy."

I would think this would be the baby's spirit responding to the Holy Spirit - I don't think a baby is capable of conscious thought or that kind of intellectual response while still in the womb.

[darinhouston]

Well, at Creation, it implies that man became a living soul only at the time when life was given to him, which makes me think that if a baby is alive in the womb, it is already a soul.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

In Job, it seems that when he was wishing he had died at birth, there was already a 'ghost to give up' present in the baby, and he would have gone to join others resting after they died:

Job 3:11 (KJV) Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
14 With kings and counsellors of the earth,...


Job 3:16 or as a hidden untimely birth I would not have been, like infants who did not see light.
On the other hand, this verse implies that if he had been aborted prematurely, he would not have existed. Which I find surprising.

However:

Luke 1:41 (KJV) And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost...
44 "For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy."

I would think this would be the baby's spirit responding to the Holy Spirit - I don't think a baby is capable of conscious thought or that kind of intellectual response while still in the womb.

Excellent points and nice texts -- except for the Job passage, it would be a pretty compelling case. I think Adam's a special situation, though, in every respect but particularly since he was formed as a grown man (I think).

[Paidion]

Job 3:16 or as a hidden untimely birth I would not have been, like infants who did not see light.
On the other hand, this verse implies that if he had been aborted prematurely, he would not have existed. Which I find surprising.

"Would not have been". Which translation is that? None of the translations in my bible program use that phrase. It seems most unusual.

I would be buried like a stillborn baby. I would not exist. I would be like infants who never saw the light. GWV

This one seems to have Job saying that if he had been still born, he would not exist (in the present).

Or the same thought seems to be expressed by the King James translation:

Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.

In this case, would he not be saying that the whole life he had lived would not have been? Indeed, even the translation you quoted could be so interpreted.

The NKJV does not contain the phrase at all:

Or why was I not hidden like a stillborn child, Like infants who never saw light?

And so also with other translations:
Or why was I not as a hidden stillborn child, as infants who never see the light? ESV
Or why was I not as a hidden untimely birth, as infants that never see the light? RSV
Or why was I not buried like a stillborn child, like an infant that never sees the light? NRSV
Or why was I not hidden in the ground like a stillborn child, like an infant who never saw the light of day? NIV
Or I should have been as an untimely birth proceeding from his mother’s womb, or as infants who never saw light. THE SEPTUAGINT (an English translation)

So I don't think a judgment as to whether or not the foetus is a complete human being, ought to be judged on the basis of a single verse in a unique translation which does not agree with the majority of translations. (Clarification: I am not suggesting that anyone here is doing so)

[darinhouston]

OK, I'm convinced.

Now, help me understand the manifold mysteries of God's economy -- why do you suppose He would create a soul that He never intended to live on earth? Do you suspect that this baby just got a "pass" at the whole "testing ground" thing here on Earth and got to move past "Go" and proceed directly to eternity with no testing, etc.?

I understand how He could use such an experience for good and to test the families and friends, to show His mercy and any number of things that could come from such a loss for the benefit of the living and to His glory, but I'm just at a loss to understand any purpose with respect to the baby, herself.

[Suzana]

Job 3:16 or as a hidden untimely birth I would not have been, like infants who did not see light.
On the other hand, this verse implies that if he had been aborted prematurely, he would not have existed. Which I find surprising.

"Would not have been". Which translation is that? None of the translations in my bible program use that phrase. It seems most unusual.

I was hoping someone with a good understanding & knowledge of translations would expound on this verse! Thanks, Paidion.
That was from the MKJV according to e-Sword. I'm glad you queried that actually, because for some reason the 'MKJV' had always translated to 'NKJV' in my mind, & I now realise they are not the same. I'll have to look into that & see if the NKJV is also supported by the e-Sword software.

OK, I'm convinced.

Now, help me understand the manifold mysteries of God's economy -- why do you suppose He would create a soul that He never intended to live on earth?....

I can't. (and I have to go to work now!). Maybe someone else can. Perhaps it's something we won't ever fully understand in this life.

[Paidion]

why do you suppose He would create a soul that He never intended to live on earth?

This question means nothing to me, since I don't believe God creates a bundle of souls up in heaven and plunks each of them into a zygote, or foetus, or baby (whichever the case is supposed to be).

The "soul" is not a separate entity from the body. It means can mean "the self", the person himself, or it can sometimes mean the spirtual aspect of a person. But the soul doesn't have a separate existence.

Children inherit ALL of their characteristics from their ancestors, beginning with Adam and Eve. Both physical, mental, and spiritual aspects have that origin. How else could people inherits a sinful nature from Adam and Eve? It's genetics. The same way as they inherited a human body from Adam and Eve, and not the body of a dog or horse.

If God had created souls separately from their bodies, He would not have created them with sinful natures. So every aspect of our being, physical, mental, and spiritual have been inherited from Adam and Eve.

When a zygote grows into a baby, the mental and spiritual aspects grow along with the body, and continue to grow through childhood and teendom. If the soul were given to the body, then a baby or child should be mentally at the same stage as an adult, and a baby should be able to stand up and give wise discourses (as the gnostics said that Jesus did when He was a baby).

Why are there old-age dementia, etc.? Did the "soul" grow old, too? If so, will that soul have dementia in heaven after death? On the other hand, if mental and spiritual characteristics are aspects of the whole person as I believe them to be, then as a person ages, there will be changes in the function, not only of the eyes and ears, but of the brain, and spiritual functions. All of these will be restored in the resurrection of the saints. Indeed, they function much better than they did in the person's youth.

[darinhouston]

why do you suppose He would create a soul that He never intended to live on earth?

This question means nothing to me, since I don't believe God creates a bundle of souls up in heaven and plunks each of them into a zygote, or foetus, or baby (whichever the case is supposed to be).

The "soul" is not a separate entity from the body. It means can mean "the self", the person himself, or it can sometimes mean the spirtual aspect of a person. But the soul doesn't have a separate existence.

Children inherit ALL of their characteristics from their ancestors, beginning with Adam and Eve. Both physical, mental, and spiritual aspects have that origin. How else could people inherits a sinful nature from Adam and Eve? It's genetics. The same way as they inherited a human body from Adam and Eve, and not the body of a dog or horse.

If God had created souls separately from their bodies, He would not have created them with sinful natures. So every aspect of our being, physical, mental, and spiritual have been inherited from Adam and Eve.

When a zygote grows into a baby, the mental and spiritual aspects grow along with the body, and continue to grow through childhood and teendom. If the soul were given to the body, then a baby or child should be mentally at the same stage as an adult, and a baby should be able to stand up and give wise discourses (as the gnostics said that Jesus did when He was a baby).

Why are there old-age dementia, etc.? Did the "soul" grow old, too? If so, will that soul have dementia in heaven after death? On the other hand, if mental and spiritual characteristics are aspects of the whole person as I believe them to be, then as a person ages, there will be changes in the function, not only of the eyes and ears, but of the brain, and spiritual functions. All of these will be restored in the resurrection of the saints. Indeed, they function much better than they did in the person's youth.

Very intriguing... I'll have to chew on this. Thanks

[TK]

darin wrote:

I understand how He could use such an experience for good and to test the families and friends, to show His mercy and any number of things that could come from such a loss for the benefit of the living and to His glory, but I'm just at a loss to understand any purpose with respect to the baby, herself.

Hi darin.. what you wrote here ALMOST bothered me until I noticed that you said God could USE such an experience. you didnt come out and say that God CAUSED the experience, which would have really bugged me.

which begs the question-- do you think God caused the death of this child?

TK

[darinhouston]

darin wrote:

which begs the question-- do you think God caused the death of this child?

TK

Caused? or Permitted? I'm pretty sure I don't know.