NT Wright on the Rapture

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darinhouston
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Re: NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by darinhouston » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:46 am

Note the various word uses of ktisis, also. None of them seem to unambiguously refer to the "material world," and instead all seem to relate to personal creatures or specific things.
  • Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
    Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
    Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
    Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.
    Gen 9:10 And with every living creature that [is] with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
    Gen 9:12 And God said, This [is] the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that [is] with you, for perpetual generations:
    Gen 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which [is] between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
    Gen 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that [is] upon the earth.
    Lev 11:46 This [is] the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth:
    Eze 1:20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither [was their] spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature [was] in the wheels.
    Eze 1:21 When those went, [these] went; and when those stood, [these] stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature [was] in the wheels.
    Eze 1:22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature [was] as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.
    Eze 10:15 And the cherubims were lifted up. This [is] the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar.
    Eze 10:17 When they stood, [these] stood; and when they were lifted up, [these] lifted up themselves [also]: for the spirit of the living creature [was] in them.
    Eze 10:20 This [is] the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they [were] the cherubims.
    Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
    Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
    Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
    Hbr 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
    Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Conquest
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Re: NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by Conquest » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:07 pm

I'm a bit unclear on your post, you seem to be arguing the against the concept that the entire cosmos is the topic in the passage in Ro 8, but the majority of translations you povided appear to translate the passage contemplating the concept of the entire creation. I'm not very up to snuff on Greek so definitions you provide don't offer any clarity to me. Wouldn't a generic reference to all created things be "creation"?

Conquest
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Re: NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by Conquest » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:28 pm

darinhouston wrote:Note the various word uses of ktisis, also. None of them seem to unambiguously refer to the "material world," and instead all seem to relate to personal creatures or specific things.
  • Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
    Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
    Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
    Gen 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof.
    Gen 9:10 And with every living creature that [is] with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
    Gen 9:12 And God said, This [is] the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that [is] with you, for perpetual generations:
    Gen 9:15 And I will remember my covenant, which [is] between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
    Gen 9:16 And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that [is] upon the earth.
    Lev 11:46 This [is] the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth:
    Eze 1:20 Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither [was their] spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature [was] in the wheels.
    Eze 1:21 When those went, [these] went; and when those stood, [these] stood; and when those were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature [was] in the wheels.
    Eze 1:22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature [was] as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.
    Eze 10:15 And the cherubims were lifted up. This [is] the living creature that I saw by the river of Chebar.
    Eze 10:17 When they stood, [these] stood; and when they were lifted up, [these] lifted up themselves [also]: for the spirit of the living creature [was] in them.
    Eze 10:20 This [is] the living creature that I saw under the God of Israel by the river of Chebar; and I knew that they [were] the cherubims.
    Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
    Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
    Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
    Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
    Hbr 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
    Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Regarding Ro 8:19, the word translated "creature" above, note 30 on pg 513 in Moo's commentary on Romans, he reports, "The word means "act of creating" (perhaps Rom 1:20 or more often, "that which has been created" either in an individual sense - "creature" (Fom 8:39, 2 Cor 5:17, Gal 6:15, Col 1:23) - or in the most general sense - the "creation" (Mark 10:6, 13:19, Rom 1.25, Col 1:15, Heb 4:13, 9:11. 2 Pet 3:4, Rev 3:14: in 1 Pet 2:13, it has the unusual meaning "authori" - cf. BAGD). The meaning broadly defined, is required here." Evidently something within the context is requiring the broader definition.

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darinhouston
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Re: NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by darinhouston » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:58 pm

Conquest wrote:I'm a bit unclear on your post, you seem to be arguing the against the concept that the entire cosmos is the topic in the passage in Ro 8, but the majority of translations you povided appear to translate the passage contemplating the concept of the entire creation. I'm not very up to snuff on Greek so definitions you provide don't offer any clarity to me. Wouldn't a generic reference to all created things be "creation"?
Regarding Ro 8:19, the word translated "creature" above, note 30 on pg 513 in Moo's commentary on Romans, he reports, "The word means "act of creating" (perhaps Rom 1:20 or more often, "that which has been created" either in an individual sense - "creature" (Fom 8:39, 2 Cor 5:17, Gal 6:15, Col 1:23) - or in the most general sense - the "creation" (Mark 10:6, 13:19, Rom 1.25, Col 1:15, Heb 4:13, 9:11. 2 Pet 3:4, Rev 3:14: in 1 Pet 2:13, it has the unusual meaning "authori" - cf. BAGD). The meaning broadly defined, is required here." Evidently something within the context is requiring the broader definition
I was showing the various translations just out of recognition that all but the KJV and a couple of others seem to agree with you. I do find the personification by Paul at least to bear on the subject, and the fact that Romans 8 seems to be about personal human salvation, so maybe tradition is coloring the other translations? The greek dictionaries are not all that helpful since there are a number of shades of meaning for virtually all words, but the scripture references from blueletterbible's strong's reference were clearly ALL concerning individuals. I'm not sure why it didn't show me the Mark 10:6 and other references you shared, but it's clear from your references that it does seem to sometimes mean all creation, but again even in Mark 10:6, "from the beginning of creation" isn't overtly discussing the material non-personal world, particularly since it is discussing the first two individuals (male and female).

At best, I think it's ambiguous. Tradition is on your side, but at least KJV and Webster and others have seen it this way, so I'm still in "curious" mode. I never thought it anything but referring to the cosmos, but now I'm not so sure.

Conquest
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Re: NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by Conquest » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:53 pm

All the translations are based on tradition?

Conquest

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darinhouston
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Re: NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by darinhouston » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:02 am

Conquest wrote:All the translations are based on tradition?

Conquest
To some extent, I believe all translations are influenced by traditions, but your question is different than that I think -- no, all of them aren't based on the same tradition in this regard because a few translate it "creature," but your point is a good one -- surely most of the translations are recognizing it as "creation."

Conquest
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Re: NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by Conquest » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:57 am

Like I said, I don't know much about the original languages nor the process of translating a passage from the original to another language. Someone once told me that what causes the translator to determine the concept of a word is the context where the word is found. Perhaps the causation for translators that came up with what Moo states is the required meaning in the passage was tied to verse 22 where the KJV conveys the “creation” groans. The concept in the passage that the entire creation is feeling the effects of sin but not due to its own initiative, Ro 8:20 would seem to tie back to the fall where God cursed the ground, Gen 3:17, due to the actions of man. I would think it kind of hard for Paul to indicate the “person” is feeling the effects of sin but not do to his own actions.

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darinhouston
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Re: NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by darinhouston » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:47 am

This just keeps on bringing up things I've never noticed before. Did you notice that even in Gen 3:17, the ground (not cosmos at large) was said to have been cursed "for his sake." It was in connection with Adam that the ground was cursed. Maybe, nothing transformative happened to the ground so much as the effect of it would now be felt by Adam since he would be cast out of the pristine garden into the wilds of Eden and required to live by the land and work it. Maybe there was some specific curse to make the thorrns and thistles more prolific such as childbirth was "multiplied" for Eve, but that doesn't necessarily imply some wholesale curse affecting all the cosmos.

Some time ago, I read some Genesis commentary (Genesis Unbound, I think) that posits that much of the creation story relates to the garden only and that the rest of eden (where Adam was thrust) and the cosmos was already in existence when God formed the Garden for Adam. It's a very thought provoking book.

Not to get too left-field (and this is pure conjecture), but personally (and I don't think I'm a complete kook), I've wondered whether the Garden might have been an other-dimensional reality within Eden which would explain how the angel blocked the entrance after Adam was thrust out -- in that sense, Adam could be said to have lost his immortality and "bound" to the 4 dimensions of our present existence in some respects at the Fall, which is coupled to the ability to transform between dimensional realities. This HAS to be the state of Christ's resurrected body since otherwise we can't explain where His body is at present, which would imply that something similar will happen to our resurrection bodies (which should materially by like Christ's present body and that of Adam before the Fall, I think).
KJV, Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;

Conquest
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Re: NT Wright on the Rapture

Post by Conquest » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:34 am

I’m doing a very poor job of communicating. My point wasn’t that Gen 3:17 established the entire Cosmos is under the penalty of sin but that this passage ties with what Paul seemed to be communicating in Ro 8, which would go to your point that the translators were reading a “tradition” into the text rather than translating effectively and in an unbiased manner the concepts Paul wanted his audience to understand. I think the concept the Cosmos was effected by sin is what Paul was conveying and it seems to me the translation of the Greek word in question, (Ro 8:19 creature vs creation) was driven by the thoughts in the immediate context of where the word is found.

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