I think he is only negating your initial suggestion that we should have some higher burden due to these past translations. He used an excellent example of where such errors can be compounded even without overt bias.bshow wrote:Again, this is not an argument. What does any of this have to do with Acts 13:48? Answer: nothing. Despite all the vigorous hand-waving, you (and Anderson, whoever he is) have failed to demonstrate that the majority translation *of this verse* is caused by "slavishly following past translations", or incorrect or inferior to the various proffered "translations" that fit your theology better...
Acts 13:48 (Periphrastic Construction)
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_darin-houston
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Last edited by _mikenatt on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Bob,
You acknowledged:
Do you believe the following:
1. No person can be converted by the Gospel unless he is first regenerated.
2. The Gospel message is irresistable to the regenerated person. He will believe it when he hears it.
3. No unregenerate person seeks God.
1. There were gentiles, devout seekers after God, in attendance at the synagogue when the gospel was preached. They heard Paul preach about the history of God's people, that Jesus was the promised Saviour, the preaching of John and his testimony about Jesus, that this salvation was for "children of the stock of Abraham and whosoever among you feareth God", that Jesus died according to the scriptures, that God raised Him from the dead, and that forgiveness of sins is through Him.
2. If the gentiles who heard this gospel message were ordained to eternal life prior to hearing Paul's sermon, why did the not believe when they heard it? They were obviously there seeking God, and begging to hear more, which you say they can not do unless they are first regenerated. And how did they resist belief until the following Sabbath?
3. The obvious answer is that the gospel message they heard Paul preach at the synagogue ordained (disposed) them to eternal life. They just didn't realize yet that it was meant for them.
4. The next Sabbath they again heard Paul, and the gentiles believed what the unbelieving Jews rejected.
5. There is absolutely nothing in the text that indicates an ordaining of the gentiles prior to their hearing Paul's preaching, and nothing that indicates regeneration precedes faith.
Regarding Rice's analogy, I read it in a debate he had with an evangelical that is in a book of almost 1000 pages of fine print (their debates lasted for many days back then). I remember his illustration well; I have read most of the debate twice. However, the book is loaned out now and regardless, with no index, it would be quite a chore to locate his statement.
You acknowledged:
Do you believe the following:
1. No person can be converted by the Gospel unless he is first regenerated.
2. The Gospel message is irresistable to the regenerated person. He will believe it when he hears it.
3. No unregenerate person seeks God.
And now we can see how the context of Acts 13 contradicts your system.Anyway, in answer to your question, yes, I believe the Scripture teaches those three things.
1. There were gentiles, devout seekers after God, in attendance at the synagogue when the gospel was preached. They heard Paul preach about the history of God's people, that Jesus was the promised Saviour, the preaching of John and his testimony about Jesus, that this salvation was for "children of the stock of Abraham and whosoever among you feareth God", that Jesus died according to the scriptures, that God raised Him from the dead, and that forgiveness of sins is through Him.
2. If the gentiles who heard this gospel message were ordained to eternal life prior to hearing Paul's sermon, why did the not believe when they heard it? They were obviously there seeking God, and begging to hear more, which you say they can not do unless they are first regenerated. And how did they resist belief until the following Sabbath?
3. The obvious answer is that the gospel message they heard Paul preach at the synagogue ordained (disposed) them to eternal life. They just didn't realize yet that it was meant for them.
4. The next Sabbath they again heard Paul, and the gentiles believed what the unbelieving Jews rejected.
5. There is absolutely nothing in the text that indicates an ordaining of the gentiles prior to their hearing Paul's preaching, and nothing that indicates regeneration precedes faith.
Regarding Rice's analogy, I read it in a debate he had with an evangelical that is in a book of almost 1000 pages of fine print (their debates lasted for many days back then). I remember his illustration well; I have read most of the debate twice. However, the book is loaned out now and regardless, with no index, it would be quite a chore to locate his statement.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
A Berean
Aha! The trap is sprung!Homer wrote:Bob,
You acknowledged:
Do you believe the following:
1. No person can be converted by the Gospel unless he is first regenerated.
2. The Gospel message is irresistable to the regenerated person. He will believe it when he hears it.
3. No unregenerate person seeks God.And now we can see how the context of Acts 13 contradicts your system.Anyway, in answer to your question, yes, I believe the Scripture teaches those three things.
I don't think they were "resisting belief", where is the evidence for that?Homer wrote: 1. There were gentiles, devout seekers after God, in attendance at the synagogue when the gospel was preached. They heard Paul preach about the history of God's people, that Jesus was the promised Saviour, the preaching of John and his testimony about Jesus, that this salvation was for "children of the stock of Abraham and whosoever among you feareth God", that Jesus died according to the scriptures, that God raised Him from the dead, and that forgiveness of sins is through Him.
2. If the gentiles who heard this gospel message were ordained to eternal life prior to hearing Paul's sermon, why did the not believe when they heard it? They were obviously there seeking God, and begging to hear more, which you say they can not do unless they are first regenerated. And how did they resist belief until the following Sabbath?
3. The obvious answer is that the gospel message they heard Paul preach at the synagogue ordained (disposed) them to eternal life. They just didn't realize yet that it was meant for them.
Furthermore, they were not "obviously seeking God". People are seeking a lot of things (witness the modern "seeker-sensitive" movement). When we say that the unregenerate do not seek God, we mean that they do not seek to embrace the gospel on His terms, as helpless sinners wholly dependent on the righteousness of Christ to gain acceptance by Him.
13:48 indicates the prior ordaining to eternal life. The doctrine that regeneration precedes faith is not taken from this passage, but from e.g. Eph 2:1-6.Homer wrote: 4. The next Sabbath they again heard Paul, and the gentiles believed what the unbelieving Jews rejected.
5. There is absolutely nothing in the text that indicates an ordaining of the gentiles prior to their hearing Paul's preaching, and nothing that indicates regeneration precedes faith.
Fair enough, but without seeing it in context, you'll understand my reluctance to trust your recollection...Homer wrote: Regarding Rice's analogy, I read it in a debate he had with an evangelical that is in a book of almost 1000 pages of fine print (their debates lasted for many days back then). I remember his illustration well; I have read most of the debate twice. However, the book is loaned out now and regardless, with no index, it would be quite a chore to locate his statement.
Cheers,
Bob
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
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_darin-houston
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:07 am
- Location: Houston, TX
Have you done a search on books.google.com? There are a number of them there free and searching within the books is pretty effective -- the search terms are even highlighted in the printed text for you and you can download the book in pdf or text if you want.Homer wrote:Regarding Rice's analogy, I read it in a debate he had with an evangelical that is in a book of almost 1000 pages of fine print (their debates lasted for many days back then). I remember his illustration well; I have read most of the debate twice. However, the book is loaned out now and regardless, with no index, it would be quite a chore to locate his statement.
Last edited by _mikenatt on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
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_darin-houston
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:07 am
- Location: Houston, TX
This typically Calvinistic definition of "seeking God" is not useful in any meaningful discussion - if one can appear to seek after God and think they're seeking after God and the only way you can know it is by knowing the true condition of their heart (as only God does), then it's nonsensical to even discuss whether any particular person may have sought after God, don't you think ?bshow wrote:Furthermore, they were not "obviously seeking God". People are seeking a lot of things (witness the modern "seeker-sensitive" movement). When we say that the unregenerate do not seek God, we mean that they do not seek to embrace the gospel on His terms, as helpless sinners wholly dependent on the righteousness of Christ to gain acceptance by Him.
Last edited by _mikenatt on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
That's not my position, so the conclusion is irrelevant (and would be irrelevant even if true). I stand by my original statement.darin-houston wrote: This typically Calvinistic definition of "seeking God" is not useful in any meaningful discussion - if one can appear to seek after God and think they're seeking after God and the only way you can know it is by knowing the true condition of their heart (as only God does), then it's nonsensical to even discuss whether any particular person may have sought after God, don't you think ?
Cheers,
Bob
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
The doctrine that regeneration precedes faith is taken from e.g. Eph 2:1-6.
Wrong.
At first glance, the argument that Eph 2:1-6 teaches regeneration precedes faith appears to be perfectly reasonable – until we realise that the entire argument from these texts contradicts other passages of Scripture, overlook alternative records of the same event, and fails to take into account other verses which might qualify what is being said.
What God means to teach us in Eph 2 cannot be understood apart from everything else he teaches us on this subject. And what God teaches us in specific passages may not be the whole truth he reveals to us about a topic. I really wonder if any calvinists have considered the possibility that the passages in Eph. 2 may only be part of, one side, or one phase of everything God reveals on the subect depravity and regeneration. Have you, bshow? The only way these passages can work and support deductive calvinism, is not take into consideration the overall teaching of Scripture on this subject.
Eph. 2:1-6
1 And you, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 And God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
Instead of doing a verse by verse commentary on the all six verses, I will instead just comment on two of them which are bolded.
Col. 2:11-14
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us
When we compare the two passages, we get a more complete picture of what took place. As a side note, many Scholars have pointed out a that the letter known as being to the Ephesians and the letter to the Colossians have a special relationship to each other. That being said, Colosians places faith and forgiveness of sins before regeneration when speaking of the very same thing, with the same phrases mentioned in Ephesians. Forgiveness is equivalent to justification (see Rom.4:1ff). Justification comes as a result of faith. "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness" (Gen.15:6). That is, faith precedes justification, and since justification precedes regeneration, faith must precede regeneration. This necessarily means that the passages in Colossians qualifies the passages at hand in this discussion found in Ephesians.
If we were to use the calvinist method for interpreting Eph. 2:4-6 when coming to texts like Ac 2:47 where is says the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved, we might conlude that the gospel was not preached, nor did anyone believe. Same thing for the prodigal son. That text says he came to himself [repented], but nothing is said of any activity of the Spirit or that he repented so by grace. If we handle this verse like the calvinist handles Eph. 2:4-6, we might conclude that the prodigal came to His senses and returned to the father without grace.
In the end, we have many Scriptures that teach that upon believing, we experience eternal life. (see John 3:16, 18, 36; 4:42, 53; 6:40, 47 20:21 to mention a few) Isn't this the same life that makes us alive?
Wrong.
At first glance, the argument that Eph 2:1-6 teaches regeneration precedes faith appears to be perfectly reasonable – until we realise that the entire argument from these texts contradicts other passages of Scripture, overlook alternative records of the same event, and fails to take into account other verses which might qualify what is being said.
What God means to teach us in Eph 2 cannot be understood apart from everything else he teaches us on this subject. And what God teaches us in specific passages may not be the whole truth he reveals to us about a topic. I really wonder if any calvinists have considered the possibility that the passages in Eph. 2 may only be part of, one side, or one phase of everything God reveals on the subect depravity and regeneration. Have you, bshow? The only way these passages can work and support deductive calvinism, is not take into consideration the overall teaching of Scripture on this subject.
Eph. 2:1-6
1 And you, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 And God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.
Instead of doing a verse by verse commentary on the all six verses, I will instead just comment on two of them which are bolded.
Col. 2:11-14
In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us
When we compare the two passages, we get a more complete picture of what took place. As a side note, many Scholars have pointed out a that the letter known as being to the Ephesians and the letter to the Colossians have a special relationship to each other. That being said, Colosians places faith and forgiveness of sins before regeneration when speaking of the very same thing, with the same phrases mentioned in Ephesians. Forgiveness is equivalent to justification (see Rom.4:1ff). Justification comes as a result of faith. "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness" (Gen.15:6). That is, faith precedes justification, and since justification precedes regeneration, faith must precede regeneration. This necessarily means that the passages in Colossians qualifies the passages at hand in this discussion found in Ephesians.
If we were to use the calvinist method for interpreting Eph. 2:4-6 when coming to texts like Ac 2:47 where is says the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved, we might conlude that the gospel was not preached, nor did anyone believe. Same thing for the prodigal son. That text says he came to himself [repented], but nothing is said of any activity of the Spirit or that he repented so by grace. If we handle this verse like the calvinist handles Eph. 2:4-6, we might conclude that the prodigal came to His senses and returned to the father without grace.
In the end, we have many Scriptures that teach that upon believing, we experience eternal life. (see John 3:16, 18, 36; 4:42, 53; 6:40, 47 20:21 to mention a few) Isn't this the same life that makes us alive?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
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_darin-houston
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:07 am
- Location: Houston, TX
I started this issue in a new thread.The doctrine that regeneration precedes faith is taken from e.g. Eph 2:1-6.
Wrong.
http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=2477
Last edited by _mikenatt on Thu May 01, 2008 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Then why don't you clarify your position instead of dodging the point.bshow1 wrote:
That's not my position, so the conclusion is irrelevant (and would be irrelevant even if true). I stand by my original statement.
Cheers,
Bob
To further the discussion, I'll repeat Homer's point:
Act 13:26 "Brothers, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to us has been sent the message of this salvation.
To which you replied:
They were gathered there and were God fearers. Apparently they were seeking something else why would they be gathered there to listen?bshow1 wrote:Furthermore, they were not "obviously seeking God". People are seeking a lot of things (witness the modern "seeker-sensitive" movement).
-Please prove your assertion from scripture please.bshow1 wrote:When we say that the unregenerate do not seek God, we mean that they do not seek to embrace the gospel on His terms, as helpless sinners wholly dependent on the righteousness of Christ to gain acceptance by Him.
-The righteousness that is imputed to us comes by faith, not before. (Rom 4:5)
Regeneration comes through faith and is not the cause of it:
Act 15:9 [He] made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
So the question of when our hearts are purified (regenerated) is answered by Peter. Faith is not the result of regeneration but must be present for regeneration to occur. Unless you believe Peter is not talking about regeneration.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
Thanks Darin, I'll respond over there.darin-houston wrote:I started this issue in a new thread.
http://www.wvss.com/forumc/viewtopic.php?t=2477
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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