Calvinism and Prayer

[Guest]

In his book "Yet Will I Trust Him", John Mark Hicks relates the following true story (the names have been changed):

"That was an awful storm we had last night!" Mary commented as she met Jill in the hall.

"Yeah," her coworker replied. "I was scared to death. I don't think I've ever seen it hail so hard. All I heard on the radio and TV last night were tornado warnings or watches."

"But hearing a tornado warning on the radio, and hearing the tornado itself are two different things," Mary responded. "One of those tornados went right over our townhouse about one o'clock this morning."

"You're kidding! Did it really? Were you scared?"

"Scared out of my wits, but I just thank God that it didn't hit my house. Unfortunately it hit the Anderson's home, and killed Jim and his two-year old son Joshua. The whole neighborhood is shocked and devastated. He was a good man, and Joshua was such a sweet boy."

"How sad. Tornadoes are terrible things. But, Mary, you must feel very lucky. That tornado could have hit your house and killed you!"

"Oh, it wasn't luck," Mary said. God was looking out for us. He protected us. We are so greatful to Him. He answered our prayers, and let me tell you, we prayed hard last night."

"Uh....," Jill muttered in a state of shock. "you really mean that, don't you?"

"Of course!" Mary continued. "I believe God has a special care for those who love Him and pray to Him. We knew these storms were coming from the late news, and we prayed for protection. Our prayers were answered when that tornado lifted over our house...."

"But," Jill interrupted, it hit the Anderson's house and killed a two-year old child. Why didn't God protect them? Weren't they good people too? Was it just because they didn't pray? Or maybe they prayed and God didn't answer them like He did you. Did God prefer you over Joshua? Mary, this kind of talk bothers me. I don't think God had anything to do with it. Tornadoes are simply things that happen, and whatever they do is a result of natural forces and luck - good or bad."

Mary obviously believes prayer can make a difference. Prayer is a means for changing empirical realities. Jill believes God is not involved at all. And the Calvinist believes the safety of Mary and her family was foreordained, as was the death of Jim Anderson and his son Joshua. According to both Jill and the Calvinist, Mary's prayer changed nothing, and whether Mary's family and the Andersons prayed was irrelevant to the result, so in this regard the Calvinist and sceptic agree.

As I understand it, the modernist view of God is Deism, the post-modernist views God as only working in this world by influencing people, while the Calvinist believes God has unchangeably foreordained every event that will ever occur. In each of the these three systems, prayer changes nothing.

I can not understand the purpose of prayer in the Calvinist system. It seems to be a sort of acting out of a role in some scripted play, rather than a real relational communication with a personal God. Perhaps the Calvinists can explain whether, and how, they believe our prayers accomplish anything at all.

[Guest]

I agree with Jill's point of view, not because she didnt think prayer affects things, but because she believed God had nothing to do with the tornado sparing one family and killing the next. He doesnt play "eeny meeny miny mo." That is the devil's work. God may have protected Mary's family because of her prayer, but God didnt cause the tornado to kill Jim and his son.

That being said, I agree with Homer 100% that in the Calvinist system. prayer would seem futile at least when it comes to asking God to intervene and change things. Prayer could be seen as useful in relating to God, and praise, but when it comes to intercession, I agree with Homer's conclusion.

TK

[Guest]

Yes, it seems that the skeptic, the Deist, the post-modernist, and the Calvinist cannot expect prayer to change anything. Although some Calvists believe God uses prayer as part of his overall program in causing all events to occur, the outcome is still inevitable.

However, doesn't the Arminian have the same problem?

If God knew in advance that Jim Anderson and his son Joshua would die as a result of the tornado, would they have been saved if they had prayed? God's knowing that they would die means that they would, in fact, die. So how could it be otherwise?

[Guest]

Homer,
I think the Calvinist would say that the Holy Spirit would cause these people to pray to be protected, so when God did so, it could be said that God caused them, through the leading of the Holy Spirit to freely pray to bring about His will on the earth.

However, doesn't the Arminian have the same problem?

No.
The Arminian believes their prayer actually changes things. Of course, the outcome of prayer is something that God knew in advance as well.

If God knew in advance that Jim Anderson and his son Joshua would die as a result of the tornado, would they have been saved if they had prayed? God's knowing that they would die means that they would, in fact, die. So how could it be otherwise?

I don't see how the Open Theist view is any better. So in your view God doesn't even know that a tornado is going to kill someone even when the very people in the story knew it likely enough to pray for help ahead of time? Were they more informed to the storm than God?

[Guest]

I can not understand the purpose of prayer in the Calvinist system. It seems to be a sort of acting out of a role in some scripted play, rather than a real relational communication with a personal God. Perhaps the Calvinists can explain whether, and how, they believe our prayers accomplish anything at all.

Gee Homer, have you never read any Calvinist on prayer? They write lots of books, you know.

If you see prayer as a way to change God, or to get Him to do something He otherwise wouldn't do, it's like looking down the wrong end of a telescope. I believe that prayer is the means God uses to get us involved in what He is doing. We aren't telling Him anything He doesn't already know (Mt. 6:8). It is we that are changed by prayer, not him.

You might have heard a very moving story of prayer involving a little girl and a hot water bottle (see e.g. http://www.ugandamission.net/prayer/girl.html; it may be an apocryphal story, but it illustrates the point.) How should we understand this? It cannot be that the little girl's prayer caused God to send the hot water bottle; the bottle would have had to have been shipped days or weeks in advance. Rather, it's clear that the prayer was a gift, given to the little girl in her simple faith. Had she not prayed, would the arrival of the water bottle been seen in the same light? The prayer validated the providence of God in providing for the situation, and gave all those involved a moving glimpse of God's hand in it.

Cheers,
Bob

[Guest]

If God knew in advance that Jim Anderson and his son Joshua would die as a result of the tornado, would they have been saved if they had prayed?

Hi Paidion,

Good question. But is your answer that God did not know in advance?

I think Sean makes a good point. Even if God didn't know from the foundation of the world, did He know five minutes before the tornado hit the house? One minute? Since the Open Theist agrees that God has perfect knowledge of the present, didn't God know that the wind conditions were driving the tornado straight into Anderson's house? Couldn't he have given the tornado a slight nudge away from their house?

Cheers,
Bob

[Guest]

Hi Bob,

How should we understand this? It cannot be that the little girl's prayer caused God to send the hot water bottle; the bottle would have had to have been shipped days or weeks in advance.

I disagree. I do not believe God is bound by time as we are. I believe God is outside time, and to Him the difference in time between the shipment of the water bottle and the girl's prayer is meaningless and irrelevant.

OK, call me nuts.

And you wrote:

If you see prayer as a way to change God, or to get Him to do something He otherwise wouldn't do, it's like looking down the wrong end of a telescope. I believe that prayer is the means God uses to get us involved in what He is doing. We aren't telling Him anything He doesn't already know (Mt. 6:8). It is we that are changed by prayer, not him.

And this is what I do not understand about your view of prayer.

We have a grandaughter who was acutely ill, within hours of death, almost four years ago. She was on life support for some time and in the hospital for twelve weeks. I prayed for her recovery as fervently as you can imagine, and praise God, our prayers were answered!

I never blamed God for her illness, and would not have blamed God if she had not survived. The thought never crossed my mind. We live in a fallen, cursed world, and these things happen. They are the common lot of man due to sin. This world is not as God intended.

My prayers for our grandaughter, according to your belief, had no effect whatever on the outcome. How sad! Her recovery made an almost incalculable difference in her life, and you say prayer had nothing to do with it! On the other hand, you say my praying somehow made a difference in me personally. If it did, this change is imperceptable to me. Oh yes, I praise God for her recovery, but according to you, my praying was in vain. I still believe in God just as I did before, and my devotion to Him and others has not changed.

Perhaps you can explain how you see prayer that has absolutely no affect, nor can it have, on that which is prayed for, affecting for the better the one who knows his reguests are futile from the get-go.

[Guest]

I don't see how the Open Theist view is any better. So in your view God doesn't even know that a tornado is going to kill someone even when the very people in the story knew it likely enough to pray for help ahead of time? Were they more informed to the storm than God?

Many open-theists believe that God did know in advance. However, as an "ultra" open theist, I believe that none of the future is known or can logically be known since it doesn't exist. The only propostitional statements which can be known are those which have present truth value.

I notice you said, "... the very people in the story knew it likely enough to pray..." How can you know something likely enough? This is watering down the definition of "know" to mean merely "predict".
If this is your understanding of the word "know" then the open theist will agree that God knew "likely enough" that the storm would kill people --- indeed He knew much more likely than the people involved since he was totally aware of all causal factors.

But did any of the people know even "likely enough" that those specific people Jim and his son Josh would be killed by the storm? Doubtless God knew the storm causal parameters, but did He know, for example, whether someone would rush into the building and get them out in time?

I don't see how the Open Theist view is any better.

The way in which it is better is that it doesn't assume the future is all laid out, cut and dried --- that nothing in the "movie film of the future" can be altered. They disbelieve in the existence of any such movie film, just as all of us disbelieve practically. We all live our every-day lives as if we can make choices which affect what happens.

The Arminian believes that God has exhaustive forknowledge of every future event. In order to believe that, one must accept the present truth value of every sentence made concerning the future. If that were the case, then the future is closed. For example, if the sentence "Sean will reply to this post tomorrow" is now TRUE, it will be impossible for Sean not to reply to this post tomorrow.

I know the Molinist position is that even if God KNOWS a person will make a particular choice, the person may actually choose something else instead. Such a position makes no sense to me, for it is self-contradictory.

William Lane Craig makes this unbelievable statement in The Middle-Knowledge View in the book DIVINE FORKNOWLEDGE Four Views, pp 130:

So long as a person's choice is causally undetermined, it is a free choice, even if that person is unable to choose the opposite of that choice.

I can make no sense whatever of Craig's statement. I affirm that it, too, is self-contradictory. If anyone can make any sense out of the statement , I would welcome an explanation.

[Guest]

Hi Bob,

How should we understand this? It cannot be that the little girl's prayer caused God to send the hot water bottle; the bottle would have had to have been shipped days or weeks in advance.

I disagree. I do not believe God is bound by time as we are. I believe God is outside time, and to Him the difference in time between the shipment of the water bottle and the girl's prayer is meaningless and irrelevant.

OK, call me nuts.

Hi Homer,

I won't call you nuts, but I can't make sense of your argument. The water bottle was en route before the need was even recognized, let alone before the prayer was offered. Whether God is time-bound or not doesn't bear on that fact.

And you wrote:

If you see prayer as a way to change God, or to get Him to do something He otherwise wouldn't do, it's like looking down the wrong end of a telescope. I believe that prayer is the means God uses to get us involved in what He is doing. We aren't telling Him anything He doesn't already know (Mt. 6:8 ). It is we that are changed by prayer, not him.

And this is what I do not understand about your view of prayer.

We have a grandaughter who was acutely ill, within hours of death, almost four years ago. She was on life support for some time and in the hospital for twelve weeks. I prayed for her recovery as fervently as you can imagine, and praise God, our prayers were answered!

Does that mean that your prayer caused or motivated God to heal your granddaughter? Could that not be a post hoc fallacy? I think you give yourself too much credit...

I never blamed God for her illness, and would not have blamed God if she had not survived. The thought never crossed my mind. We live in a fallen, cursed world, and these things happen. They are the common lot of man due to sin. This world is not as God intended.

Was your granddaughter's illness due to her sin? Her parents? Yours? Or does bad stuff "just happen?" Or could it be "so that the works of God might be displayed" in her? (c.f. Jn 9:3)

My prayers for our grandaughter, according to your belief, had no effect whatever on the outcome. How sad! Her recovery made an almost incalculable difference in her life, and you say prayer had nothing to do with it! On the other hand, you say my praying somehow made a difference in me personally. If it did, this change is imperceptable to me. Oh yes, I praise God for her recovery, but according to you, my praying was in vain. I still believe in God just as I did before, and my devotion to Him and others has not changed.

Perhaps you can explain how you see prayer that has absolutely no affect, nor can it have, on that which is prayed for, affecting for the better the one who knows his reguests are futile from the get-go.

You put words into my mouth. Where did I say that prayer has "no effect whatever" or "have nothing to do with it?"

I said that prayer doesn't change God, and I stand by that. I believe that prayer changes things, and prayer changes people, but prayer doesn't change God. As the old hymm I love says,

• Great is Thy faithfulness, O God my Father;
  There is no shadow of turning with Thee;
  Thou changest not, Thy compassions, they fail not;
  As Thou hast been, Thou forever will be!

Through prayer God involved you in the recovery of your granddaughter. He gave you and those around you a very great gift to be personally involved in the display of His glory. He could have healed her apart from your prayer, but you would have been the loser in that case. Instead, He gave your prayer as a gift to teach you to depend on Him in your darkest hour. Your granddaughter's illness didn't "just happen"; He had a purpose in it, and part of the purpose involved you.

You claim to come away completely unchanged by your prayer in this instance. Wow, I can't relate to that at all. Don't let your hatred of Calvinism blind you to how God uses prayer to change you. That's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Cheers,
Bob

[Guest]

Bob wrote:

Through prayer God involved you in the recovery of your granddaughter. He gave you and those around you a very great gift to be personally involved in the display of His glory. He could have healed her apart from your prayer, but you would have been the loser in that case. Instead, He gave your prayer as a gift to teach you to depend on Him in your darkest hour.

sorry, Bob, but that's a lot of hogwash. it reduces prayer to simply an intellectual exercise, so that we can be fooled into thinking God really listens to us. In other words, if I pray for someone to be healed, and they are, then it wasnt really God hearing me and acting- I just happened to guess right. and if i pray and it doesnt happen, oh well it was just God's will anyway. That is not how prayer is portrayed in the Bible.

TK