TK, you are free to question anything I say at any time. It doesn't bother me in the least.
You mentioned God's power as it relates to my analogy of a Civil War era field medic. I really hate to speculate so heavily (though I'm sure God is amused by my feeble attempts) but it would appear that God must work within certain constraints that are, in a way, welded to his character. He can't tell a lie or deny himself, for example. The scriptures tell us this. But it doesn't tell us about his power so much as it reveals his character.
If Ezekiel tells us that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked then it must have pained Him to order their deaths. No way around that. I hold that Moses and Ezekiel were both true prophets of God so the only way to reconcile their two accounts of God's character is to conclude that God ordered the Israelites to do something that He hates -- the death of the wicked. So the question this raises is this: Why did God think this "land cleansing" was so important? I don't know the answer to that.
Mass Slaughter of Children in the Bible.
-
_STEVE7150
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:38 pm
Why did God think this "land cleansing" was so important? I don't know the answer to that.
OK then let me introduce you to the one who had the authority to offer to Jesus the kingdoms of the world.
OK then let me introduce you to the one who had the authority to offer to Jesus the kingdoms of the world.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion,
Thank you for your reply to my "why not?" question. Here's what I think:
First I want to say I think I understand the point you were making, although it started to veer off a little at the end. I believe you were making the point that the totality of one's life is that which is judged, in this case by history, not what a man's followers vehemently argue, especially when the facts seem to point to the opposite conclusion.
What if, in your scenario, Hitler really did die in the bunker with witnesses to prove it, but suddenly, a few days later, he appeared very much alive. What if his followers suddenly were transformed, no longer warlike, but peaceful, loving, generous? What if despite persecution and even execution, they persevered in telling their story? What if that movement grew and grew?
OK, I'm stretching it a little far and I'm going to stop because that's not what I had in mind, either.
You ended with this:
I don't think that God's character has changed, I think everything else has changed; and I think it's because Jesus appeared on earth, died, and resurrected. I think that something happened in all of that so now all things are being renewed, and that along with the new covenant there is a new creation.
So I can accept what seems to be an atrocity in the Old Testament as the way God necessarily had to deal with those people. I can accept, as hard as it is to get my mind around it, that it does not violate his perfect love or justice to do so. I can also hold in my mind at the same time, without any dissonance, that it won't happen that way again, and that this also does not violate his perfect love or justice.
Michelle
Thank you for your reply to my "why not?" question. Here's what I think:
First I want to say I think I understand the point you were making, although it started to veer off a little at the end. I believe you were making the point that the totality of one's life is that which is judged, in this case by history, not what a man's followers vehemently argue, especially when the facts seem to point to the opposite conclusion.
What if, in your scenario, Hitler really did die in the bunker with witnesses to prove it, but suddenly, a few days later, he appeared very much alive. What if his followers suddenly were transformed, no longer warlike, but peaceful, loving, generous? What if despite persecution and even execution, they persevered in telling their story? What if that movement grew and grew?
OK, I'm stretching it a little far and I'm going to stop because that's not what I had in mind, either.
You ended with this:
...which kind of changed the direction of your statement. Here you presented a rhetorical question which is meant to be answered, "Why, of course, the good, kind, loving ruler is most like our Heavenly Father!" I don't disagree that God is love, that God is good and kind, or that God is unchanging. That wasn't why I asked the question.Which of the two do you think most resembles the Heavenly Father? The man who gave instructions to kill people and babies, but changed his way of operating? Or the man who had good, unchanging character from the beginning, and who always did what was best for his subjects.
I don't think that God's character has changed, I think everything else has changed; and I think it's because Jesus appeared on earth, died, and resurrected. I think that something happened in all of that so now all things are being renewed, and that along with the new covenant there is a new creation.
So I can accept what seems to be an atrocity in the Old Testament as the way God necessarily had to deal with those people. I can accept, as hard as it is to get my mind around it, that it does not violate his perfect love or justice to do so. I can also hold in my mind at the same time, without any dissonance, that it won't happen that way again, and that this also does not violate his perfect love or justice.
Michelle
Last edited by Guest on Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Thank you for the opportunity to gather and express some thoughts on judgment and suffering which came to me while reading your thought-provoking posts.
There are some things in the OT that seem unbelievable to me as well, but in regard to the Holocaust as a judgment of God on the Jews, as well as the destruction of 70 A.D., and that
“God's nature is to give life and to support the suffering, even as He commands us to do, not to destroy life and add to the pains of the suffering. The scripture states that he even does good toward evil people, and that we should do the same, so that we may be sons of the Heavenly Father.”
God does do good toward evil people, and we are to do the same, but Jesus warned the people about 70 A.D. He wept over Jerusalem because He knew what was going to happen - because they would not let Him ‘gather’ them to Himself. He did not say, “There, there, you shouldn’t have to suffer.” No. He knew that they had to go through great suffering.
It never occurred to me that 70A.D. was anything other than a judgment of God to bring down the Temple that they loved more than the Son of God – and that could not happen without great destruction. As a result, many Christians escaped, bringing the Gospel to the world outside. The Jews needed to be delivered from their burdensome religious life that denied the Holy Spirit. Jerusalem and the Temple had been destroyed as a judgment before. And when judgment comes, and you see your children suffer as a result, does it not drive it all the deeper? The suffering of the innocents is a part of the judgment of the wicked adults – maybe through that, the hard-hearted will finally develop some pity towards others.
I cannot help but think that the Holocaust was, in part, a judgment on our dying western society. The world needed to see that this highly refined nation, Germany, that produced the best music, philosophy, art, and technology could be an animal because it did not have the Spirit of God in it. Derek Prince said there was an outbreak of the Holy Spirit in Germany at the same time Herzl’s Zionism movement began, but both were not successful (at least to the degree that Herzl hoped). Had they been, Europe’s history might have been radically different. Instead of the Jews returning to Israel with singing, they returned with a ‘hook in their jaw’ and beaten.
Proverbs 24:17 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth: 18 Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.
We are not to become personally and emotionally involved in God’s affairs, or we are meddling. I think of Jesus’ rebuke of Peter:
Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him. 33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
We are all to take up the cross. Jesus warned us to fall on the rock, because if we do not, the rock will fall on us and grind us to powder. We reap what we sow.
I have had judgment fall on me in my life and at the time, I could not believe God would allow such a terrible thing – for a time, I really thought God hated me, but the whole thing secured my liberation. Job’s situation was like a judgment on his pride.
When Jeremiah was to go tell the people a hard word, God told him, “Do not look at their faces”. When the Israelites had to go through the camp and slay the wicked of their own people, it must have done something in the slayers – like, when I have to confront someone, I have to really search my own heart first and make sure my motive is correct, I have to be prepared for the person to turn on me and accuse me. In the South they say, “Just slap the kid next to me and I’ll straighten up.” But if you have to 'slap the kid' yourself, when it is your buddy, or someone you want to impress - - it would really do a work in the heart.
Blessings, Jepne
There are some things in the OT that seem unbelievable to me as well, but in regard to the Holocaust as a judgment of God on the Jews, as well as the destruction of 70 A.D., and that
“God's nature is to give life and to support the suffering, even as He commands us to do, not to destroy life and add to the pains of the suffering. The scripture states that he even does good toward evil people, and that we should do the same, so that we may be sons of the Heavenly Father.”
God does do good toward evil people, and we are to do the same, but Jesus warned the people about 70 A.D. He wept over Jerusalem because He knew what was going to happen - because they would not let Him ‘gather’ them to Himself. He did not say, “There, there, you shouldn’t have to suffer.” No. He knew that they had to go through great suffering.
It never occurred to me that 70A.D. was anything other than a judgment of God to bring down the Temple that they loved more than the Son of God – and that could not happen without great destruction. As a result, many Christians escaped, bringing the Gospel to the world outside. The Jews needed to be delivered from their burdensome religious life that denied the Holy Spirit. Jerusalem and the Temple had been destroyed as a judgment before. And when judgment comes, and you see your children suffer as a result, does it not drive it all the deeper? The suffering of the innocents is a part of the judgment of the wicked adults – maybe through that, the hard-hearted will finally develop some pity towards others.
I cannot help but think that the Holocaust was, in part, a judgment on our dying western society. The world needed to see that this highly refined nation, Germany, that produced the best music, philosophy, art, and technology could be an animal because it did not have the Spirit of God in it. Derek Prince said there was an outbreak of the Holy Spirit in Germany at the same time Herzl’s Zionism movement began, but both were not successful (at least to the degree that Herzl hoped). Had they been, Europe’s history might have been radically different. Instead of the Jews returning to Israel with singing, they returned with a ‘hook in their jaw’ and beaten.
Proverbs 24:17 Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not thine heart be glad when he stumbleth: 18 Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn away his wrath from him.
We are not to become personally and emotionally involved in God’s affairs, or we are meddling. I think of Jesus’ rebuke of Peter:
Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him. 33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
We are all to take up the cross. Jesus warned us to fall on the rock, because if we do not, the rock will fall on us and grind us to powder. We reap what we sow.
I have had judgment fall on me in my life and at the time, I could not believe God would allow such a terrible thing – for a time, I really thought God hated me, but the whole thing secured my liberation. Job’s situation was like a judgment on his pride.
When Jeremiah was to go tell the people a hard word, God told him, “Do not look at their faces”. When the Israelites had to go through the camp and slay the wicked of their own people, it must have done something in the slayers – like, when I have to confront someone, I have to really search my own heart first and make sure my motive is correct, I have to be prepared for the person to turn on me and accuse me. In the South they say, “Just slap the kid next to me and I’ll straighten up.” But if you have to 'slap the kid' yourself, when it is your buddy, or someone you want to impress - - it would really do a work in the heart.
Blessings, Jepne
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hi Paidion,
You wrote:
I do not in the least imply that the testimony of the two [Moses and Andrea Yates] are “approximately equal”. I used the argument simply to indicate that the use of a testimony to prove that the same testimony is true, is circular reasoning, and therefore logically inadmissible.
So, on whose testimony do you accept the story of Daniel, or of Zechariah? As with Moses, we have only their testimonies (and the prophecies they wrote, which prove them to have the precise credentials that they claimed for themselves). In the case of Moses, we also have more miracles attributed to him than to any other Old Testament figure. It seems that the man has credibility. Has Andrea Yates any? If not, then why try to confuse matters with the comparison which you clearly made twice:
On March 26th, 12:47 PM: "Some people, even today, think they have heard the command of God to go out and kill some one. When a person does so, and makes the statement that God commanded him to kill, most Christians think the man is either insane, or was inpired by the devil."
On March 26th, 5:50 PM: "Wouldn't this be analagous to quoting from a writing by Andrea Yates whom you mentioned, in order to prove that God actually told her to drown her children?"
If you are not suggesting that we have as much reason to believe such claims by Andrea Yates as we have for believing the claims of Moses, what, precisely, were you trying to say in these statements?
You wrote:
As you know, I have nowhere indicated or implied that anything Moses recorded was “fabricated”. I said that Moses sometimes misunderstood the revelation of God or thought that God had given him certain instructions when, in fact, these instructions proceeded from his own mind. Your alteration of my statements truly have the effect of making them appear objectionable, but seems uncharacteristic of your usual approach.
I was not aware of altering your statement in any way (which, if I had done, would indeed be uncharacteristic of my usual approach). If the stories about Moses (which he recorded) did not correspond to real events (as you seemed prepared to call into doubt), then this was not a case of Moses just having another of his delusional prophetic episodes, but of straightforward fabrication.
You wrote:
There is no doubt a terrible judgment on the wicked. What could be worse than the suffering in Gehenna for many ages? But if that is what it takes to bring the wicked to repentance, then God will execute it. But God doesn’t punish out of a sense of giving sinners what they “deserve”, but for the purpose of bringing them to repentance or to correct them. All of God’s judgments are remedial.
And:
The implication [of Jesus’ command in Matthew 5:44-45] is that if we strike back at our persecutors, get vengeance upon them, hurt them or kill them we will be unlike the heavenly Father and thus will demonstrate that we are not His sons.
So I don’t follow your logic. You do believe that God judges severely (for reasons that are ultimately loving), but that He could not command His people to do the same, because it would be unlike Him?
I do not understand how people doing what God Himself would do (at His command) would render their actions unlike His.
The truth is that God wears many hats, some of which do not correspond to those of the disciples of Jesus. For example, judging the world! Paul wrote: “What have I to do with judging those who are outside [the church]?...Those who are outside God judges” (1 Cor.5:12, 13).
This makes it clear that Christians are not to imitate God in all of His activities, because that would mean intruding into some of His unique prerogatives, like judging the world. Thus God might tell us not to retaliate against our enemies, for the simple reason that doing so is His special province. “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says the Lord” (Rom.12:19).
However, God’s prerogative of juding the world also extends to His right to judge individual nations (e.g., the Egyptians, the Canaanites, the Amalekites, Israel, Judah, Assyria, Babylon, etc.). When He judges these nations (unless we can no longer trust Isaiah and the other prophets who tell us this) God has the right to use human armies as instruments. Thus Assyria is the rod of God’s judgment against Israel (Isa.10:5-6, 15); Cyrus is summoned by God to conquer Babylon (Isa.44:28; 45:1); and the Romans, who come against Jerusalem are God’s armies (Matt.22:7).
Unless Moses was having hallucinations, God told him that (by the same principle as these other cases) God was going to use Israel’s armies to judge the Canaanites. How is this in any way out of character for God to do?
You wrote:
Love is not just “one side” of God’s character, while justice (interpreted as “judgment”) is the other. God is not schizophrenic in character. There is only one side to His character --- love. He IS love! I John 4:8,16
One side of His character, yes, but He wears more than one hat. By your own admissions, it is not contrary to God’s loving character for Him to engage in severe judgments. Your only caveat is that it must serve some loving purpose. Fair enough. God said that, if the Canaanites were not exterminated, Israel would be corrupted by them, and fall into the same judgment as was coming on the Canaanites. To avoid this happening strikes me as a very loving purpose. Why could not God have done it (not that there is any doubt that He did so, if we trust God’s prophets, as Jesus did)?
You wrote:
But how is it going to help a person to repent by killing him? Will it help by diminishing his future judgment? [Maybe!] Will it help babies to kill them now so that they can go to heaven and not have to grow up in rebellion and go to hell? [Maybe!] If so, perhaps the whole world should be destroyed by nuclear bombs and thus prevent it from going deeper into sin and rebellion. [Sorry, but this is desperately silly—and I emphasize the desperate].
You wrote:
...but what good and Godly purpose would it serve? Would it’s purpose be to prevent the spread of their evil practices? [Maybe!] To prevent the Hebrews from being contaminated by their evil? [This was God’s stated reason]. A similar reason was given by the Catholics and Protestants in the middle ages who burnt at stake the “heretics” of their day. [True. But they were acting contrary to the commands given to the church, whereas Israel was acting in obedience to the commands given to them. Are you unable to see the difference?]
You wrote:
God could have waited until these evil people died a natural death, even as He does today.
Perhaps God would have been wiser to delegate the rule of the universe to those of us who understand better than He how best to accomplish His purposes?
You wrote:
As I see it, the Hebrews took it in their own hands to destroy those they hated, and Moses then justified it by writing that God told him to do so.
Which is only a slightly more polite way of saying “Moses was a false prophet.”
Jeremiah would then be describing (among others) Moses in the following denunciation:
“Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart” (Jer.14:14)
On the other hand, Jeremiah, too, may not have really been hearing from God. Who can say? God seems remarkably inept (by your theory) at making Himself clear—even to His hand-picked messengers, including the one with whom He spoke “face to face” (Num.12:8).
By the way, although the last citation is recorded in one of Moses’ books, it does not record a questionable, subjective revelation given to Moses alone, which he might have mistaken for the real deal. It was a message that was thundered from the pillar of cloud to Moses, Aaron and Miriam, resulting in Miriam’s leprosy. This either happened or it did not. If not, it is a fabrication, because Moses said it happened, and certainly would have known if it had not. You may deny any part of this story you wish, but please don’t do so while denying that you are accusing Moses of fabrication.
You wrote:
These words of our Lord coupled with my belief about Moses misinterpreting the revelation of God do not imply that Jesus was mistaken about anything. For these words of our Lord do not affirm that everything that Moses wrote or said had its origin in God.
If Jesus was not affirming that everything Moses wrote was reliable, but was of the opinion that some of the things Moses wrote could be justly rejected, then how could He blame the Pharisees for rejecting the parts in Moses’ writings which speak of Christ? Perhaps those parts were among the sections that Moses only thought God was saying, but the Pharisees (whose theology otherwise told them that Jesus was not the Christ) knew better than Moses about such things. If Jesus believed that we can reject certain things Moses wrote, because they don’t seem to fit our other theological commitments, then He hardly had a valid complaint against the Pharisees on this score. Perhaps they merely agreed with Jesus (and you) that Moses' reliability was spotty.
You wrote:
I do not in the least imply that the testimony of the two [Moses and Andrea Yates] are “approximately equal”. I used the argument simply to indicate that the use of a testimony to prove that the same testimony is true, is circular reasoning, and therefore logically inadmissible.
So, on whose testimony do you accept the story of Daniel, or of Zechariah? As with Moses, we have only their testimonies (and the prophecies they wrote, which prove them to have the precise credentials that they claimed for themselves). In the case of Moses, we also have more miracles attributed to him than to any other Old Testament figure. It seems that the man has credibility. Has Andrea Yates any? If not, then why try to confuse matters with the comparison which you clearly made twice:
On March 26th, 12:47 PM: "Some people, even today, think they have heard the command of God to go out and kill some one. When a person does so, and makes the statement that God commanded him to kill, most Christians think the man is either insane, or was inpired by the devil."
On March 26th, 5:50 PM: "Wouldn't this be analagous to quoting from a writing by Andrea Yates whom you mentioned, in order to prove that God actually told her to drown her children?"
If you are not suggesting that we have as much reason to believe such claims by Andrea Yates as we have for believing the claims of Moses, what, precisely, were you trying to say in these statements?
You wrote:
As you know, I have nowhere indicated or implied that anything Moses recorded was “fabricated”. I said that Moses sometimes misunderstood the revelation of God or thought that God had given him certain instructions when, in fact, these instructions proceeded from his own mind. Your alteration of my statements truly have the effect of making them appear objectionable, but seems uncharacteristic of your usual approach.
I was not aware of altering your statement in any way (which, if I had done, would indeed be uncharacteristic of my usual approach). If the stories about Moses (which he recorded) did not correspond to real events (as you seemed prepared to call into doubt), then this was not a case of Moses just having another of his delusional prophetic episodes, but of straightforward fabrication.
You wrote:
There is no doubt a terrible judgment on the wicked. What could be worse than the suffering in Gehenna for many ages? But if that is what it takes to bring the wicked to repentance, then God will execute it. But God doesn’t punish out of a sense of giving sinners what they “deserve”, but for the purpose of bringing them to repentance or to correct them. All of God’s judgments are remedial.
And:
The implication [of Jesus’ command in Matthew 5:44-45] is that if we strike back at our persecutors, get vengeance upon them, hurt them or kill them we will be unlike the heavenly Father and thus will demonstrate that we are not His sons.
So I don’t follow your logic. You do believe that God judges severely (for reasons that are ultimately loving), but that He could not command His people to do the same, because it would be unlike Him?
I do not understand how people doing what God Himself would do (at His command) would render their actions unlike His.
The truth is that God wears many hats, some of which do not correspond to those of the disciples of Jesus. For example, judging the world! Paul wrote: “What have I to do with judging those who are outside [the church]?...Those who are outside God judges” (1 Cor.5:12, 13).
This makes it clear that Christians are not to imitate God in all of His activities, because that would mean intruding into some of His unique prerogatives, like judging the world. Thus God might tell us not to retaliate against our enemies, for the simple reason that doing so is His special province. “‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay,’ says the Lord” (Rom.12:19).
However, God’s prerogative of juding the world also extends to His right to judge individual nations (e.g., the Egyptians, the Canaanites, the Amalekites, Israel, Judah, Assyria, Babylon, etc.). When He judges these nations (unless we can no longer trust Isaiah and the other prophets who tell us this) God has the right to use human armies as instruments. Thus Assyria is the rod of God’s judgment against Israel (Isa.10:5-6, 15); Cyrus is summoned by God to conquer Babylon (Isa.44:28; 45:1); and the Romans, who come against Jerusalem are God’s armies (Matt.22:7).
Unless Moses was having hallucinations, God told him that (by the same principle as these other cases) God was going to use Israel’s armies to judge the Canaanites. How is this in any way out of character for God to do?
You wrote:
Love is not just “one side” of God’s character, while justice (interpreted as “judgment”) is the other. God is not schizophrenic in character. There is only one side to His character --- love. He IS love! I John 4:8,16
One side of His character, yes, but He wears more than one hat. By your own admissions, it is not contrary to God’s loving character for Him to engage in severe judgments. Your only caveat is that it must serve some loving purpose. Fair enough. God said that, if the Canaanites were not exterminated, Israel would be corrupted by them, and fall into the same judgment as was coming on the Canaanites. To avoid this happening strikes me as a very loving purpose. Why could not God have done it (not that there is any doubt that He did so, if we trust God’s prophets, as Jesus did)?
You wrote:
But how is it going to help a person to repent by killing him? Will it help by diminishing his future judgment? [Maybe!] Will it help babies to kill them now so that they can go to heaven and not have to grow up in rebellion and go to hell? [Maybe!] If so, perhaps the whole world should be destroyed by nuclear bombs and thus prevent it from going deeper into sin and rebellion. [Sorry, but this is desperately silly—and I emphasize the desperate].
You wrote:
...but what good and Godly purpose would it serve? Would it’s purpose be to prevent the spread of their evil practices? [Maybe!] To prevent the Hebrews from being contaminated by their evil? [This was God’s stated reason]. A similar reason was given by the Catholics and Protestants in the middle ages who burnt at stake the “heretics” of their day. [True. But they were acting contrary to the commands given to the church, whereas Israel was acting in obedience to the commands given to them. Are you unable to see the difference?]
You wrote:
God could have waited until these evil people died a natural death, even as He does today.
Perhaps God would have been wiser to delegate the rule of the universe to those of us who understand better than He how best to accomplish His purposes?
You wrote:
As I see it, the Hebrews took it in their own hands to destroy those they hated, and Moses then justified it by writing that God told him to do so.
Which is only a slightly more polite way of saying “Moses was a false prophet.”
Jeremiah would then be describing (among others) Moses in the following denunciation:
“Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart” (Jer.14:14)
On the other hand, Jeremiah, too, may not have really been hearing from God. Who can say? God seems remarkably inept (by your theory) at making Himself clear—even to His hand-picked messengers, including the one with whom He spoke “face to face” (Num.12:8).
By the way, although the last citation is recorded in one of Moses’ books, it does not record a questionable, subjective revelation given to Moses alone, which he might have mistaken for the real deal. It was a message that was thundered from the pillar of cloud to Moses, Aaron and Miriam, resulting in Miriam’s leprosy. This either happened or it did not. If not, it is a fabrication, because Moses said it happened, and certainly would have known if it had not. You may deny any part of this story you wish, but please don’t do so while denying that you are accusing Moses of fabrication.
You wrote:
These words of our Lord coupled with my belief about Moses misinterpreting the revelation of God do not imply that Jesus was mistaken about anything. For these words of our Lord do not affirm that everything that Moses wrote or said had its origin in God.
If Jesus was not affirming that everything Moses wrote was reliable, but was of the opinion that some of the things Moses wrote could be justly rejected, then how could He blame the Pharisees for rejecting the parts in Moses’ writings which speak of Christ? Perhaps those parts were among the sections that Moses only thought God was saying, but the Pharisees (whose theology otherwise told them that Jesus was not the Christ) knew better than Moses about such things. If Jesus believed that we can reject certain things Moses wrote, because they don’t seem to fit our other theological commitments, then He hardly had a valid complaint against the Pharisees on this score. Perhaps they merely agreed with Jesus (and you) that Moses' reliability was spotty.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
In regards to why God chose ISRAEL to defeat these peoples instead of utilizing a plague or whatnot, I came to the conclusion a few years back that the Canaanites are types of the flesh. We must fight against the flesh. God took Jericho down w/o a fight (that was to show His power), but then the Israelites had to get down and dirty to continue fighting against the flesh.
I liken it to my own experience. When I fully surrendered to God and entered 'the promised land' (so to speak), God took my temper away instantaneously. It was amazing! I went from a hot tempered teen to a person of peace in seconds. But there are other weaknesses I'm STILL fighting against.
The stories of the slaughter of the pagan nations neighboring Israel are, indeed, gruesome. That is sort of the point. The flesh is ugly. Sin is despicable. It needs to be annihilated completely. And it's not a fun process all the time.
I actually wrote a song about these things based on Jericho.
Marching around this city
How could it fall so simply?
Not a thing that I have done
Could have made this battle won
The enemy was in great fear
Before I was even near
Walls went down without a fight
The battle won was not by might
Jericho, Jericho
I have had my Jericho
And my victory has been won
By what I could not have done
Jericho, Jericho
And now I will always know
Though in the future I may fight
Victory will never be by might
Marching through that city
And all the things so pretty
Oh the treasures of this earth
Could a little plunder hurt?
The command you made was clear
There were still things I held dear
Oh, the price of selfish eyes
Oh, the price of hidden lies
Repeat Chorus
Marching from that city
Toward the land that's for me
All the kingdoms that must fall
For you to be my all in all
Town to town I'll always go
But I'll remember Jericho
I will have to fight the fight
But I'll never fight by might
Repeat Chorus
And all the ground that I can claim
Is through the power of your name
And though the battles may be rough
It's your power that's enough
Repeat Chorus
I liken it to my own experience. When I fully surrendered to God and entered 'the promised land' (so to speak), God took my temper away instantaneously. It was amazing! I went from a hot tempered teen to a person of peace in seconds. But there are other weaknesses I'm STILL fighting against.
The stories of the slaughter of the pagan nations neighboring Israel are, indeed, gruesome. That is sort of the point. The flesh is ugly. Sin is despicable. It needs to be annihilated completely. And it's not a fun process all the time.
I actually wrote a song about these things based on Jericho.
Marching around this city
How could it fall so simply?
Not a thing that I have done
Could have made this battle won
The enemy was in great fear
Before I was even near
Walls went down without a fight
The battle won was not by might
Jericho, Jericho
I have had my Jericho
And my victory has been won
By what I could not have done
Jericho, Jericho
And now I will always know
Though in the future I may fight
Victory will never be by might
Marching through that city
And all the things so pretty
Oh the treasures of this earth
Could a little plunder hurt?
The command you made was clear
There were still things I held dear
Oh, the price of selfish eyes
Oh, the price of hidden lies
Repeat Chorus
Marching from that city
Toward the land that's for me
All the kingdoms that must fall
For you to be my all in all
Town to town I'll always go
But I'll remember Jericho
I will have to fight the fight
But I'll never fight by might
Repeat Chorus
And all the ground that I can claim
Is through the power of your name
And though the battles may be rough
It's your power that's enough
Repeat Chorus
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Hemingway once said: 'The world is a fine place and worth fighting for'
I agree with the second part (se7en)
I agree with the second part (se7en)
Paidion wrote:
When Achan sinned by stealing some stuff and hiding it. Josh. ch 6 & 7
Jos 6:18 And you surely shall keep clear of the cursed thing, lest you make yourselves cursed when you take of the cursed things, and make the camp of Israel a curse, and trouble it.
Jos 6:19 But all the silver and gold, and vessels of bronze and iron, are devoted to Jehovah. They shall come into the treasury of Jehovah.
Jos 7:10 And Jehovah said to Joshua, Get up! Why do you lie on your face this way?
Jos 7:15 And it shall be, he who is taken with the cursed thing shall be burned with fire, he and all he has, because he has broken the covenant of Jehovah, and because he has done wickedness in Israel.
Also, Korah's rebellion against Moses and Aaron, and God's judgement:
Num 16:30 But if Jehovah makes a new thing, and the earth opens her mouth and swallows them up with all that they have, and they go down alive into the pit, then you shall understand that these men have provoked Jehovah.
Num 16:31 And it happened, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart.
Num 16:32 And the earth opened her mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who were for Korah, and all their goods.
Num 16:33 They and all that they had went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed upon them. And they perished from among the congregation.
At other times, innocent people died as a direct judgement of God on somebody else's sin - for example, when David authorised a census;
1Ch 21:7 And it was evil in the eyes of God as to this thing. And He struck Israel.
1Ch 21:14 And Jehovah sent a plague on Israel. And there fell seventy thousand men of Israel.
When David sinned with Bathsheba,
2Sa 12:14 Only, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of Jehovah to blaspheme, this child born to you shall surely die.
2Sa 12:15 And Nathan left to go to his house. And Jehovah struck the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and it was very sick.
(and died).
I do trust in God's love and justice, but I can also accept that in this life I am not able to explain or understand all of God's ways;
But just because God has the prerogative to judge - to give life and to take it - we should not think that this gives us the same freedom, or that His actions will be any excuse for anybody else playing God.
The Old Testament scriptures contain more than one instance of God's judgement which to me do not appear to be particularly remedial for the person involved (not in this life, anyway). The ones that immediately come to mind:But God doesn’t punish out of a sense of giving sinners what they “deserve”, but for the purpose of bringing them to repentance or to correct them. All of God’s judgments are remedial.
But how is it going to help a person to repent by killing him?
When Achan sinned by stealing some stuff and hiding it. Josh. ch 6 & 7
Jos 6:18 And you surely shall keep clear of the cursed thing, lest you make yourselves cursed when you take of the cursed things, and make the camp of Israel a curse, and trouble it.
Jos 6:19 But all the silver and gold, and vessels of bronze and iron, are devoted to Jehovah. They shall come into the treasury of Jehovah.
Jos 7:10 And Jehovah said to Joshua, Get up! Why do you lie on your face this way?
Jos 7:15 And it shall be, he who is taken with the cursed thing shall be burned with fire, he and all he has, because he has broken the covenant of Jehovah, and because he has done wickedness in Israel.
Also, Korah's rebellion against Moses and Aaron, and God's judgement:
Num 16:30 But if Jehovah makes a new thing, and the earth opens her mouth and swallows them up with all that they have, and they go down alive into the pit, then you shall understand that these men have provoked Jehovah.
Num 16:31 And it happened, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, the ground under them split apart.
Num 16:32 And the earth opened her mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who were for Korah, and all their goods.
Num 16:33 They and all that they had went down alive into Sheol, and the earth closed upon them. And they perished from among the congregation.
At other times, innocent people died as a direct judgement of God on somebody else's sin - for example, when David authorised a census;
1Ch 21:7 And it was evil in the eyes of God as to this thing. And He struck Israel.
1Ch 21:14 And Jehovah sent a plague on Israel. And there fell seventy thousand men of Israel.
When David sinned with Bathsheba,
2Sa 12:14 Only, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of Jehovah to blaspheme, this child born to you shall surely die.
2Sa 12:15 And Nathan left to go to his house. And Jehovah struck the child that Uriah's wife bore to David, and it was very sick.
(and died).
I do trust in God's love and justice, but I can also accept that in this life I am not able to explain or understand all of God's ways;
But just because God has the prerogative to judge - to give life and to take it - we should not think that this gives us the same freedom, or that His actions will be any excuse for anybody else playing God.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
-
_STEVE7150
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:38 pm
Why did God think this "land cleansing" was so important? I don't know the answer to that.
OK then let me introduce you to the one who had the authority to offer to Jesus the kingdoms of the world.
In Gen22.17 "and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies" which was God speaking to Abraham. Possessing the gates of a city meant controlling it but in the NT it's a spiritual conquest but in the OT it was not spiritual but physical possession that ruled.
So to overcome Canaan which was in effect the kingdom of darkness probably controlled by Satan it took a physical destruction.
Jesus said salvation comes through the jews and Satan knew it, thus he may have made a stand in Canaan yet the Israelites had to remain intact as a nation for God's redemptive plan to be fulfilled, thereby requiring severe action.
OK then let me introduce you to the one who had the authority to offer to Jesus the kingdoms of the world.
In Gen22.17 "and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies" which was God speaking to Abraham. Possessing the gates of a city meant controlling it but in the NT it's a spiritual conquest but in the OT it was not spiritual but physical possession that ruled.
So to overcome Canaan which was in effect the kingdom of darkness probably controlled by Satan it took a physical destruction.
Jesus said salvation comes through the jews and Satan knew it, thus he may have made a stand in Canaan yet the Israelites had to remain intact as a nation for God's redemptive plan to be fulfilled, thereby requiring severe action.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
I haven't read this topic through--only skimmed it so far. It looks very interesting, and I will sit down and read it more completely later.
But I wanted to share this link I stumbled upon today that seems to be related to the topic:
http://www.scriptoriumdaily.com/2008/03 ... the-bible/
It seems to support what Steve was saying in regards to the ancient Hebrews being of a totally different psychological makeup than people today. As the article says, "Abraham was not an American with sheep and no ipod." (The relevance of the article to the topic at hand is about half-way through, but you have to read the whole thing to get the point).
I look forward to reading this thread more carefully.
But I wanted to share this link I stumbled upon today that seems to be related to the topic:
http://www.scriptoriumdaily.com/2008/03 ... the-bible/
It seems to support what Steve was saying in regards to the ancient Hebrews being of a totally different psychological makeup than people today. As the article says, "Abraham was not an American with sheep and no ipod." (The relevance of the article to the topic at hand is about half-way through, but you have to read the whole thing to get the point).
I look forward to reading this thread more carefully.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason: