I believe dmatic has been saying all along that the Law of Moses is current in its entirety and must be observed even by the Gentile believers of the day. Of course I disagree with this totally and in fact there is something on record from the first century that shows that the new christians were not obligated to the Old Law.
Acts 4:34
There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales...
Now from the Law of Moses:
Leviticus 25:23 ‘The land shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine; for you are strangers and sojourners with Me. 24 And in all the land of your possession you shall grant redemption of the land.
Sabbath Observance: 3 Views
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
MLH, our unity in Christ in not based on philosophical or theological belief. It is based on our submission to Christ, on our recognition of him as our Lord and Master. Unitedly, we deny ourselves, and by God's enabling grace, serve him and put to death the self-serving spirit.
Even the apostles themselves had sharp disagreements. Did that indicate a lack of unity? I don't think so. It indicated a need for those on both sides of a dispute to search for the truth.
Paul's dispute with Barnabus as to whether or not John Mark should go with them was left unresolved until years later. Barnabus went sailing away with Mark, while Paul chose Silas and together they did the Lord's work.
And after some days Paul said to Barnabas, "Come, let us return and visit the brethren in every city where we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they are."
And Barnabas wanted to take with them John called Mark. But Paul thought best not to take with them one who had withdrawn from them in Pamphylia, and had not gone with them to the work.
And there arose a sharp contention, so that they separated from each other; Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus, but Paul chose Silas and departed, being commended by the brethren to the grace of the Lord. Acts 15:36-40
It wasn't until years later that Paul realized that Barnabus was right. For young Mark had matured into a trustworthy disciple. He wrote the gospel of Mark, and furthermore served Paul in prison.
Colossians 4:10 Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, and Mark the cousin of Barnabas (concerning whom you have received instructions—if he comes to you, receive him),
2 Timothy 4:9-11 Do your best to come to me soon. For Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica; Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia. Luke alone is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you; for he is very useful in serving me.
1 Peter 5:13 She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark.
Paul also confronted Peter for not associating with the Gentiles when "the circumcision party" was present. This time, Paul was right:
Galatians 2:11-13 But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And with him the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity.
Jesus prayer for the unity of his disciples "that they may be ONE even as you, Father, and I are ONE" will be answered. But that unity does not yet exist. Meanwhile it is important that we don't promote a false unity by attempting to eliminate all dissention between brethren. Disagreement is important so that we might come to the knowledge of the truth.
In this forum, there is much disagreement. That does not bother me in the least. For those whose whole purpose is to submit to Christ, and receive enabling grace through the spirit of the Father and of the Son, to do the will of God, and who are on the road to completion, who are being conformed to the image of Christ, have already achieved a great degree of unity. By treading softly and never bringing into the open any differences in understanding, we actually stunt our growth as disciples. Not only that, but by our silence in discussing controversial subjects, we are practising dishonesty, as well as a false unity, a "unity" that is far from the reality of our relationship with our fellow disciples.
Even the apostles themselves had sharp disagreements. Did that indicate a lack of unity? I don't think so. It indicated a need for those on both sides of a dispute to search for the truth.
Paul's dispute with Barnabus as to whether or not John Mark should go with them was left unresolved until years later. Barnabus went sailing away with Mark, while Paul chose Silas and together they did the Lord's work.
And after some days Paul said to Barnabas, "Come, let us return and visit the brethren in every city where we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they are."
And Barnabas wanted to take with them John called Mark. But Paul thought best not to take with them one who had withdrawn from them in Pamphylia, and had not gone with them to the work.
And there arose a sharp contention, so that they separated from each other; Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus, but Paul chose Silas and departed, being commended by the brethren to the grace of the Lord. Acts 15:36-40
It wasn't until years later that Paul realized that Barnabus was right. For young Mark had matured into a trustworthy disciple. He wrote the gospel of Mark, and furthermore served Paul in prison.
Colossians 4:10 Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, and Mark the cousin of Barnabas (concerning whom you have received instructions—if he comes to you, receive him),
2 Timothy 4:9-11 Do your best to come to me soon. For Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica; Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia. Luke alone is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you; for he is very useful in serving me.
1 Peter 5:13 She who is at Babylon, who is likewise chosen, sends you greetings; and so does my son Mark.
Paul also confronted Peter for not associating with the Gentiles when "the circumcision party" was present. This time, Paul was right:
Galatians 2:11-13 But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And with him the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity.
Jesus prayer for the unity of his disciples "that they may be ONE even as you, Father, and I are ONE" will be answered. But that unity does not yet exist. Meanwhile it is important that we don't promote a false unity by attempting to eliminate all dissention between brethren. Disagreement is important so that we might come to the knowledge of the truth.
In this forum, there is much disagreement. That does not bother me in the least. For those whose whole purpose is to submit to Christ, and receive enabling grace through the spirit of the Father and of the Son, to do the will of God, and who are on the road to completion, who are being conformed to the image of Christ, have already achieved a great degree of unity. By treading softly and never bringing into the open any differences in understanding, we actually stunt our growth as disciples. Not only that, but by our silence in discussing controversial subjects, we are practising dishonesty, as well as a false unity, a "unity" that is far from the reality of our relationship with our fellow disciples.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Well said, Paidion!
MLH, your reminder of Eph. 4:3-6 is a good one. There IS one faith, but what are it's teachings? Paul himself disputed daily concerning the one faith, and warned that men from their own number would arise and introduce destructive doctrines. Others would come teaching another gospel, or another faith. Jesus remarkably remarked : "When the Son of Man returns, will He find faith on the earth?"
Paul says in 1 Tim. 4:1ff that in the last days men would fall from the faith as they paid attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. many parts of the Bible warn us not to follow those who advocate disregard for God's commandments, yet most, seem to have been deceived by these deceitful spirits, and think that God's commandments have been done away with! Jesus commanded us not to think that way, but many fail to heed His command.
We will have peace with God when we come into agreement with Him. As Paidion rightly points out, we are not yet one, but we will be. False teaching is seeming to be used by God to instruct in the true way, as we dig for understanding and truth! But let us seek true peace, not a false one, that yields truth for a 'feeling' of unity.
peace, dmatic
MLH, your reminder of Eph. 4:3-6 is a good one. There IS one faith, but what are it's teachings? Paul himself disputed daily concerning the one faith, and warned that men from their own number would arise and introduce destructive doctrines. Others would come teaching another gospel, or another faith. Jesus remarkably remarked : "When the Son of Man returns, will He find faith on the earth?"
Paul says in 1 Tim. 4:1ff that in the last days men would fall from the faith as they paid attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons. many parts of the Bible warn us not to follow those who advocate disregard for God's commandments, yet most, seem to have been deceived by these deceitful spirits, and think that God's commandments have been done away with! Jesus commanded us not to think that way, but many fail to heed His command.
We will have peace with God when we come into agreement with Him. As Paidion rightly points out, we are not yet one, but we will be. False teaching is seeming to be used by God to instruct in the true way, as we dig for understanding and truth! But let us seek true peace, not a false one, that yields truth for a 'feeling' of unity.
peace, dmatic
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Allyn quoted a passage from the Law and suggests it to be in contradiction to Acts 3:34. It is/was not illegal to sell land or houses, even in walled cities. Read the context of Lev. 25 qnd continue on and see that this concept of not losing one's inheritance "forever" also speaks of God's plan of universal restoration and reconciliation. A man cannot get himself into such debt that the Jubilee will not return to him, the inheritance he lost, due to 'whatever'! Such grace is defined in God's Law!
Indeed, I do say that the Word of God, as given to Moses, the prophets and the psalms is current in its entirety and will be observed by all people, as God gives us eyes to see and ears to hear!
Peace, dmatic
Indeed, I do say that the Word of God, as given to Moses, the prophets and the psalms is current in its entirety and will be observed by all people, as God gives us eyes to see and ears to hear!
Peace, dmatic
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
STEVE7150 asked if I saw that Jesus was equating the old wine with the Law of Moses and the new with His Law. The parable followed the question of why Jesus' disciples didn't fast. I'm not sure how you're interpreting the parable, but I'm pretty sure Jesus wasn't teaching that we should not keep the Law of Moses since He taught His disciples to keep it!
Peace, dmatic
Peace, dmatic
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Sean, I'm still contemplating an answer to the annulment of the temporary commandments concerning the Levitical Priesthood, but you also asked how one would abolish the prophets.
There is much good teaching contained in the writings of the Prophets. all designed to give us a clearer understanding of God and His character. None of those teachigns should be abolished or disregarded. They are part of the "inspired scriptures" that are profitable for correction, for reproof, for doctrine and training in righteousness!
Many examples of people abolishing the prophets are seen every day when confronted with the false teachings of many "churches". This week, for example is a good one. Passover does not occur for another month, yet "christians" are being taught to celebrate the fertility spring goddess rite of babylon.
Consider Jeremiah 10....where we are instructed not to follow after the traditions of the heathen. then the prophet is given the example of the "christ-mas tree", and showing that we should not do this! yet, go into many "churches" that have abolished the teachings of the prophets and you'll find a decorated "christmas tree" up front! People are encouraged to put them up in there own homes and bow to them when they kneel to get the presents from under it!
I happened to turn to Zep. 2:3 where another example of abolishing the prophets is seen. The passage says: "Seek the LORD, all you humble of the earth. Who have carried out His ordinances. SEEK righteousness, seek humility. Perhaps you will be hidden in the day of the LORD's anger." This Old testament prophet, of course, agrees with Jesus' teaching. Who taught us to seek God's kingdom and His righteousness first! (Seeking righteousness as God defines righteousness). This seeking requires effort...to strive to enter through the narrow gate..but some have "abolished" this teaching from the prophets by saying things like: "Don't seek to do right, nor try to keep God's ordinances because you'll not be able to do it anyway! And, besides, these ordinances have been done away with! These ordinances weren't meant for you anyway! They were only meant for the "Jews"!"
There is one faith, and it's teachings are for all people. There is the same Law for the so-called "Jews" as there is for all nations!
hope this helps!
peace, dmatic
There is much good teaching contained in the writings of the Prophets. all designed to give us a clearer understanding of God and His character. None of those teachigns should be abolished or disregarded. They are part of the "inspired scriptures" that are profitable for correction, for reproof, for doctrine and training in righteousness!
Many examples of people abolishing the prophets are seen every day when confronted with the false teachings of many "churches". This week, for example is a good one. Passover does not occur for another month, yet "christians" are being taught to celebrate the fertility spring goddess rite of babylon.
Consider Jeremiah 10....where we are instructed not to follow after the traditions of the heathen. then the prophet is given the example of the "christ-mas tree", and showing that we should not do this! yet, go into many "churches" that have abolished the teachings of the prophets and you'll find a decorated "christmas tree" up front! People are encouraged to put them up in there own homes and bow to them when they kneel to get the presents from under it!
I happened to turn to Zep. 2:3 where another example of abolishing the prophets is seen. The passage says: "Seek the LORD, all you humble of the earth. Who have carried out His ordinances. SEEK righteousness, seek humility. Perhaps you will be hidden in the day of the LORD's anger." This Old testament prophet, of course, agrees with Jesus' teaching. Who taught us to seek God's kingdom and His righteousness first! (Seeking righteousness as God defines righteousness). This seeking requires effort...to strive to enter through the narrow gate..but some have "abolished" this teaching from the prophets by saying things like: "Don't seek to do right, nor try to keep God's ordinances because you'll not be able to do it anyway! And, besides, these ordinances have been done away with! These ordinances weren't meant for you anyway! They were only meant for the "Jews"!"
There is one faith, and it's teachings are for all people. There is the same Law for the so-called "Jews" as there is for all nations!
hope this helps!
peace, dmatic
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Nevertheless this is one of many you cannot keep and it contrdicts your statement way back that you could keep the whole Law.dmatic wrote:Allyn quoted a passage from the Law and suggests it to be in contradiction to Acts 3:34. It is/was not illegal to sell land or houses, even in walled cities. Read the context of Lev. 25 qnd continue on and see that this concept of not losing one's inheritance "forever" also speaks of God's plan of universal restoration and reconciliation. A man cannot get himself into such debt that the Jubilee will not return to him, the inheritance he lost, due to 'whatever'! Such grace is defined in God's Law!
Indeed, I do say that the Word of God, as given to Moses, the prophets and the psalms is current in its entirety and will be observed by all people, as God gives us eyes to see and ears to hear!
Peace, dmatic
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Allyn, I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are typing. You wrote:
Thanks, dmatic
What do you mean by the "this"?Nevertheless this is one of many you cannot keep and it contrdicts your statement way back that you could keep the whole Law.
Thanks, dmatic
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
-
_STEVE7150
- Posts: 894
- Joined: Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:38 pm
STEVE7150 asked if I saw that Jesus was equating the old wine with the Law of Moses and the new with His Law. The parable followed the question of why Jesus' disciples didn't fast. I'm not sure how you're interpreting the parable, but I'm pretty sure Jesus wasn't teaching that we should not keep the Law of Moses since He taught His disciples to keep it!
Dmatic, Every interpretation of this passage i've seen is that this is about the Old and New Covenant. Jesus already answered the fasting question and then as he usually does steered the conversation into the direction he wanted to take it.
BTW his disciples had to be under the Old Covenant at this point since he had'nt yet died and been resurrected yet.
Dmatic, Every interpretation of this passage i've seen is that this is about the Old and New Covenant. Jesus already answered the fasting question and then as he usually does steered the conversation into the direction he wanted to take it.
BTW his disciples had to be under the Old Covenant at this point since he had'nt yet died and been resurrected yet.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
dmatic wrote: To your other question in the post, I have already answered this objection before. The council did not deceide against Christ. They agreed that the converting Gentiles would learn the law of Moses every sabbath when they came to the synagogue to hear Moses read. (Acts 15:21) They confirmed their acceptance of the Gentile converts as brothers, and gave them the four laws from Moses, not from the so-called Noahide laws you suggest, to get them started, saying that if they kept these four things in mind as they conformed their lives to Moses' teaching that they would do well. This greatly encouraged the coverting Gentiles, in that they did not need to become circumcised as adults in order to keep the Law of moses.
hope this helps.
If your interpretation of Acts 15 is correct, then why did James state this:
Act 21:18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present.
Act 21:19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law;
Act 21:21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
Interesting that they heard that Paul taught these things and Paul did not deny it. Moving on...
Act 21:22 What then? The assembly must certainly meet, for they will hear that you have come.
Act 21:23 Therefore do what we tell you: We have four men who have taken a vow.
Act 21:24 Take them and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads, and that all may know that those things of which they were informed concerning you are nothing, but that you yourself also walk orderly and keep the law.
Notice that Paul is told what to do to try and win over other Jews. Again, Paul does not deny the "rumors". This was done to convince others that Paul walked orderly and kept the law. Moving on...
Act 21:25 But concerning the Gentiles who believe, we have written and decided that they should observe no such thing, except that they should keep themselves from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality."
It seems that the Jerusalem council's decision was not intended to convey that Gentiles should keep the law of Moses.
I completely forgot about this passage until I ran across it today looking for something else.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)