Crusader

[Guest]

Damon,

You wrote: "don't presume that you can necessarily comfort them by pointing them back to God, or to His promises. "

It is no doubt true that, for someone who does not know God and does not trust the veracity of His promises, appeal to such things brings little or no comfort. However, to those who know God, and refuse to accept the libel of the devil's accusations against His trustworthiness, there is nothing more comforting than to be turned back to God and His promises.

According to Acts 7 and Hebrews 11, this is precisely what comforted Joseph and Moses through their extended trials. This is obviously the direction that David turned, and wished to turn others, in his psalms, when he was in afflictions such as few of us have ever experienced.

It was certainly the place that Jesus sought comfort (1 Pet.2:23), as did the apostles, in all their struggles.

It is also the testimony of the saints through the ages, and of myself, who am not worthy to be compared with them, that lesser comforts may avail to encourage the soul in smaller trials, but there is nothing comparable to the remembering of the promises and the faithfulness of God in those overwhelming suffering and perplexities when the saint is being tested "above measure" and "beyond strength" (2 Cor. 1:8-10).

I guess the sensitivity that is needed in the counselor is to recognise whether the counselee really knows God or not. If so, there is nowhere better to point the sufferer than to God and His promises. If not, then pointing to God and His promises will do little good, and what is needed is evangelism.

Some of your comments give me cause to fear that your intellectual knowledge of religious truth has outstipped your personal experience with Jesus Christ. This is a common enough malady, and would definitely be worth your considering.

[Guest]

I agree with Steve on this completely. The best refuge is God and His promises. I have known Steve since the late 70's and I went to Mission St Christian fellowship. Hi Steve. At that time he was working a lot with Steve Styles I believe that was his name. Anyway Steve Im fine and the Lord has been faithful all these years....

Lord Bless You


P.S.

I guess we disagree on eternal security...I found you by accident a couple of nights ago....

[Guest]

That last message was from me...I didnt log on...my log on name is Crusader....Steve

[Guest]

Thanks for writing, Crusader. I'm glad to hear you're going on with the Lord!

[Guest]

Yeah I always liked hearing you teach and esteem you highly as a man of God.I thought you were skilled in teaching Gods Word then and from your emails here you still seem to still have that excellent command of the English language and His Word. I particulary enjoyed your debate with Dale Jensen. We stapled tracts one night out on west cliff. I remember vivdely when you and Danny were haveing a seroius discussion out on that lawn in Aptos..I never got the gist of what it was about...but much later I figured out it was probably about the direction Mission St was taking into Sheperding and your disagreements with aspects of it. I even survived that whole experience too...the submission from Fort Lauderdale. My spiritual life was being choked out though. Afterwards when we left that whole "thing" I couldnt open the Bible without it ending up in the Gospels and the Holy Spirit was showing me over again what Jesus was really like and that a real leader was the servant of all. I remember growing up in Mission Street under Lonnie and Frank...and I particlarly remember night after night the power of God so mightely demonstrated. To all of you who havent a clue what Im sharing, I must qualify these words, as ones which are specific to a place and time a many years ago,thirty to be exact.

Lord Bless You Bro


Steve

[Guest]

Damon,

You wrote: "don't presume that you can necessarily comfort them by pointing them back to God, or to His promises."

It is no doubt true that, for someone who does not know God and does not trust the veracity of His promises, appeal to such things brings little or no comfort. However, to those who know God, and refuse to accept the libel of the devil's accusations against His trustworthiness, there is nothing more comforting than to be turned back to God and His promises.

*shakes his head and sighs*

If you were Jeremiah and you were praising the Lord for His protection and vindication (which hadn't come yet) one minute, then complaining bitterly the next...would someone reiterating the promises of God to you be comforting?

Understand that Jeremiah knew the promises of God. They were never not on his mind! But obviously he wasn't completely comforted by them. Right?

The point I was making is that if those promises aren't enough to comfort a person in 'disaster circumstances', then the best thing one can do is to "sorrow with those who sorrow" and offer whatever one can do to help. Do it in the name of God, of course (a-la the principle of James 2), but that will be of the most comfort.

According to Acts 7 and Hebrews 11, this is precisely what comforted Joseph and Moses through their extended trials. This is obviously the direction that David turned, and wished to turn others, in his psalms, when he was in afflictions such as few of us have ever experienced.

Joseph was Joseph, but Judah is Judah. The tribe of Joseph (represented by Christianity) often finds comfort in spiritual things. Judah, on the other hand, finds more comfort in physical things. (The House of David was a combination of Joseph and Judah, as David's father was called an "Ephraimite" in 1 Sam. 17:12.) I've seen many Christians 'trust in the promises of God' while their physical lives totally go to pot. Crazy, but true. I could never do that; I just don't have it in me. I would want to see some physical assurance that God was with me, even if that assurance took the form of another person who took the time to care.

Understand that I'm not dismissing the promises of God. But even Moses asked for a sign that God would bring to pass His promises, even when he was standing right in front of Him! (Ex. 3-4)

...there is nothing comparable to the remembering of the promises and the faithfulness of God in those overwhelming suffering and perplexities when the saint is being tested "above measure" and "beyond strength" (2 Cor. 1:8-10).

As I've said before, not everyone has that same emotional fortitude. But I guess few are able to see that and accept that, because they keep making the implicit assumption that it's just a matter of enduring a little more, day by day, and continuing to blindly trust in the promises of God. Sorry, but my friend knows the promises of God, and nevertheless exactly like Jeremiah, those promises seem like they're less real the more time goes on because nothing ever seems to manifest.

Can I personally look at Jeremiah's experiences and find some measure of hope? Yes. But my friend just doesn't have the emotional fortitude to go there right now, and even that's making a major understatement for propriety's sake.

Some of your comments give me cause to fear that your intellectual knowledge of religious truth has outstipped your personal experience with Jesus Christ. This is a common enough malady, and would definitely be worth your considering.

On the contrary, I've lived lifetimes within the past few years. I've grown more in Christ during the past few years, because of my shared experiences with my friend, then I've ever grown during all of the rest of my Christian walk.

Damon

[Guest]

Damon wrote

" As I've said before, not everyone has that same emotional fortitude. But I guess few are able to see that and accept that, because they keep making the implicit assumption that it's just a matter of enduring a little more, day by day, and continuing to blindly trust in the promises of God. Sorry, but my friend knows the promises of God, and nevertheless exactly like Jeremiah, those promises seem like they're less real the more time goes on because nothing ever seems to manifest.

Can I personally look at Jeremiah's experiences and find some measure of hope? Yes. But my friend just doesn't have the emotional fortitude to go there right now, and even that's making a major understatement for propriety's sake. "


Damon

I think that since this whole dialogue, from your own choosing, started out in vague generalities, a definitive answer, or at least one which was more on target, was somewhat hindered if not completely stifled. So with that in mind let's start from a premise that we know, without any possible equivocation, is completely aboslutely emphaticaly true.. God doesn't lie, nor can He lie...period, end of arguement and case closed. It is supported by Scripture from Genesis to the last word in Revelation and no contradictory Scripture exists. God cannot lie for He is Holy and His character is immutable,it never changes. This tenet is true,trustworthy and beyond all doubt or question as revealed in His Word. It also was never evidenced through Jesus Christ nor His actions as recorded in the Gospels. Gods complete Holiness is one of the most important facts and revelations of Gods character and central to Christianity.

The Scritpture you shared in Jeremiah in no way gave evidence to even the remotest possibility that God did lie. It is clearly an example of a prophet throwing a temper tantrum, a hissey fit, if you will, for lack of a more adequate description. To conclude otherwise is not only not supported in the text, but, even if it were remotely true, which by the way it isnt, it would fly in face of the other 99.9 percent of Scripture which proves othewise. We must, and every Christian must satisfy this question in their own hearts,and most have, because it's essential if we are to grow and trust our heavenly Father.

As far as your friend goes and your seemingly desperate anguish to come to grips with something so easy to understand, I am quite baffled. It's possible that you are trying to intellectually figure it out when its more a heart and faith issue. It's also possible that you are failing to let God be God and walk by faith. We won't ever understand completely everything here that happens to us,God isnt going to give us a blueprint or master plan of His divine workings in our lives. (by the way, the same thing that drove Jeremiah to his hissey fit). We are called to walk by faith and not sight. Do terrible things happens to Christians? Yes, they do. One thing I learned early on in my life is this, and it's served me well, I never let the things I don't understand pollute or contaminate the things I do know to be true.

I think, without knowing all the details of the situatuon, it's hard to prayerfully minister to you or your friend with Holy Spirit pin-point direction... I can tell you this, that God is faithful and He watches diligently over His children,even the ones who pout . For those that are really His children and I mean Born Again, I really have full assurance in my heart that it's basically a done deal and will be resolved. Maybe not through quick emails but through His divine prowess as a Christian's heavenly Father and that may be down the road, in His timing. In my 31 years of walking with Jesus Christ I've never seen Him leave one of His children abandoned in doubt or confusion to sulk thier existence away in pity and remorse. So actually I'm encouraged and will pray for you and your friend so that through the power of the Holy Spirit this same revelation will also be yours.



Lord Bless you

be encouraged in His faithfulness

Steve

[Guest]

Damon,
My sympathy to your and your friend in your struggles with faith. I would encourage you to read a book that helped me a lot. Its titled "Yet Will I Trust Him" by John Mark Hicks. I bought it through Amazon. Hicks writes as a theologian who has suffered immensly; he brought me to tears more than once and yet the book has the theological aspect also. Check the reviews posted at Amazon.
I am most curious about how your friend received a promise from God.
Has he/she "tested the spirits" to see if the promise was from God? I have been a Christian for many years but have never thougt that God promised me anything that wasn't in His word (scripture). Perhaps I'm not "pentecostal" enough but I believe God speaks to me through His word with His Spirit within me. I have prayed many anguished prayers through the trials of life and never felt He promised me anything that is not common to all that trust in Him. The blessed promise we receive by faith is that no matter what may come our way, we will be allright, because in the end we will be with Him. Being a Christan may bring more suffering, not less.
Someone very dear to me was a faithful, Godly person her entire life, full of good deeds, yet suffered much. Polio in her youth, death of her father, major surgery, death of her husband with two teens still at home, cancer and major surgery again, rape victim, and finally Alzheimers at a relatively early age and death. The only complaint I ever heard of her making was the question "why do bad things always happen to me". Her faith never wavered.
"till we've all gone to Jesus, we can only wonder why" (Gillian Welch).
May God bless you and your friend.

[Guest]

thank you Homer for sharing.
I only found christianity rough when I listened to man saying
just have enough faith. Name it/claim it and seemed alot of them
were not suffereing. Wasnt there an old test. prophet that questioned the LORD about that same thing of why do the wicked not suffer.
Anyways, I have grown much since listening to S. Gregg about being
a slave with no rights ......................Yes, I do have faith too infact much faith! Until HE comes I continue to be preparing as a bride.

Again, thank you for your testimony!

[Guest]

I think that since this whole dialogue, from your own choosing, started out in vague generalities, a definitive answer, or at least one which was more on target, was somewhat hindered if not completely stifled.

Again, I'm sorry to do that, but it's not just my choice. I wouldn't feel comfortable even asking said friend for permission to discuss this issue in more detail either, especially since they're extremely private about their personal affairs to begin with.

So with that in mind let's start from a premise that we know, without any possible equivocation, is completely aboslutely emphaticaly true.. God doesn't lie, nor can He lie...period, end of arguement and case closed.

Spiritually and theologically speaking, I would agree. Speaking from the perspective of personal experience, I would deeply question this. If God can't lie, then what the hell is going on?

The Scritpture you shared in Jeremiah in no way gave evidence to even the remotest possibility that God did lie. It is clearly an example of a prophet throwing a temper tantrum, a hissey fit, if you will, for lack of a more adequate description.

I would never even consider describing what Jeremiah experienced that way. Bluntly, yes, Jeremiah "threw a fit." But that's being just about as cold and insensitive as one can possibly be to someone who has suffered horribly with absolutely no compensation for years. Again, we have the perspective of hindsight to see that Jeremiah's suffering eventually ended, but Jeremiah didn't have that perspective when he was in his circumstances.

If one of the recent survivors of the tsunami had similar issues with trusting in God's promises, would you describe them as having a "hissy fit"? At the very least, I would hope in God's green earth that you wouldn't do such a thing to their face.

As far as your friend goes and your seemingly desperate anguish to come to grips with something so easy to understand, I am quite baffled. It's possible that you are trying to intellectually figure it out when its more a heart and faith issue.

It's also possible that you're not seeing the forest for the trees, and I honestly believe that to be the case. It never has been anything other than a heart or a faith issue! As I said before, my friend stands now completely broken-hearted and destitute of the incredible faith they once had!

The question I have is, WHAT WAS IT ALL FOR!? Not just because my friend has suffered, but because they've suffered on account of trusting in a promise that seems impossible for God to fulfill now. My friend is actually in a worse position than Jeremiah was, technically speaking. God's promise that Jerusalem would be destroyed because of the wickedness of its people and its ruler might have seemed distant and unreal, but never impossible.

I've also asked myself, why did God allow Jeremiah to suffer to the point of wishing he'd never been born and losing faith entirely? What came out of that situation? I don't see that anyone repented. Was it solely for Jeremiah's benefit, then? I don't think so, but there has to be a reason WHY.

Do I want to trust in God? Yes. But how do I console a person who's at the same point that Jeremiah was at, emotionally and spiritually speaking? How do I help them to trust in God when they feel betrayed by God?

It's also possible that you are failing to let God be God and walk by faith. We won't ever understand completely everything here that happens to us...

I can certainly let God be God, but even Moses had a burning desire to know why God hadn't heard the cries of the Israelites in slavery in Egypt, so much so that God started out by answering his question even before he'd asked it. (Read the account in Exodus 2 and you'll see what I mean.) So wanting to know why isn't wrong.

One thing I learned early on in my life is this, and it's served me well, I never let the things I don't understand pollute or contaminate the things I do know to be true.

We are also told to "test all things" and "hold fast to what is good." Well, pardon me, but I want to hold God to that same standard. I not only want to know that God is true because I read it in a book. I want to know that God is true because I've lived it and experienced it.

In my 31 years of walking with Jesus Christ I've never seen Him leave one of His children abandoned in doubt or confusion to sulk thier existence away in pity and remorse.

Neither did King David! (Ps. 37:25) And neither have I...until now. That's what boggles my mind.

Thank you for trying to encourage me, though. I respect the love and compassion you're showing to me now, when it really matters.

Damon