Sabbath Observance: 3 Views

[Guest]

Allyn wrote:

To quote a line from I Robot, "You are the" (pause) "dumbest smart person I have ever met!"

This is an interesting response. Why quote from a movie? Does it say it better than you could? Or, is there something we should all know about the movie's context, that will help us better understand your comment? What if we haven't seen the movie? Or maybe you're afraid to just say what you mean, and need to hide behind your robe of righteousness, otherwise known as make-believe?

More Later.

dmatic

Yes, there is a context of the phrase I quoted. The line originated from a frustration over an apparent ignorance the smart lady robotic engineer had concerning her robots and the 3 laws. Even though the 3 laws were hard-wired into each robot there was one robot who broke those laws and became self-aware. The lady engineer was in denial over this and even after repeated attempts, by the cop who said the line, to convince her that her robots had become more human and were a danger to society. She was very intellegent but lacked good sense and could not see what was so obvious to the cop. It was not until it was too late that she finally saw what the cop had seen all along.

Some people are very intellectual but lack common sense. Its like not being able to see the forest for the trees.

[Guest]

Allyn wrote:

Some people are very intellectual but lack common sense. Its like not being able to see the forest for the trees.

So, are you suggesting that paidion lacks common sense? I have not found him to lack in this area. Or are you saying that I lack common sense? That's probably true!~

Thanks for the clarification, though it didn't help. Sorry. The comment still seems crass.

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Does God want us to obey the Law, which simply shows us our sin since none are capable of perfection in the Law, or does God call us righteous because of His Son?

NEITHER! ---- Unless by "the Law" we mean "the LAW which is above the Law (of Moses) ---- the LAW of God underlying the Law of Moses --- which is tantamount to "the LAW of Christ. ---- God does want us to obey that LAW, and he has provided the enabling grace to do so.

God doesn't "call us righteous because of his Son." God wants a REAL righteousness from his people --- not a pretending "imputed" righteousness.

He has made a real righteousness possible through his enabling grace ---made possible by the death of his son. It's true we aren't capable in ourselves of obedience, that is, by self-effort. But through that enabling grace (Titus 2) God has made it possible for us to be righteous. With this provision we ARE capable!

I've meant to comment on this quote by the noted common senser, Paidion, 8) , but have found only a few minutes now to do so. I'll try to
exhibit a more loving nature, in doing so too! (Thanks Allyn!)

I believe that God does want us to obey His Laws. The laws that He has graciously revealed to us, including the Laws "of" Moses.

And I certainly agree with Paidion that God is looking to make us "really righteous"...

I also believe that we can do nothing by self-effort. Absolutely nothing!
This nothing would include doing anything evil either! In other words, though I agree that we cannot obey Him by our own self-effort, neither can we disobey Him by self-effort!

Having said that, i also agree with Paidion, that God has made real righteousness possible through His enabling Grace!

Jesus said: "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door!"

By His grace, we may do so, and not even feel guilty for trying to obey Him! Imagine that! I have found that those who do not have a lot of good to say about "zealousness for good works", often are not obeying Christ in this matter, and even try to discourage those who want to obey Him, by suggesting that they won't be able to do so, so why try? Besides, they seem to reason, if you don't try to obey God, then you won't have a tendency to become arrogant, and self-righteous! And we all know what an affront to God haughtiness and self-righteousness are!

Righteousness is doing what is right. And right is defined by God and His Law.

It is not right to not teach seekers to keep God's commandments. Thus, Jesus says these people will be called least in the kingdom of God. There are many, today, who hold the position that God's law is passed away. They seem to disparage it as not being spiritual, but we know that the Law IS spiritual! There are many who will think they can call Jesus Lord, Lord, and think they are "in" Him, even thought they do not do His commandments. Jesus says that those people, even though they think they have done all these good works in Jesus name, will be comanded to Depart, because they have done law-less things, and are not "Known" by Him. Those "In' Christ, are law-ful. I know that this revelation does not seem "loving" to some, but it is true. Jesus always upheld the commandments of His Father, even saying "If you want to see life, Keep the commandments!" When the guy asked Him which? He answered with five from the "Ten", and another from the Law "of" Moses, not contained on the "Ten". I believe that Jesus was not lying! Those of you who try to defend your anti-nomian position, seem to suggest that Jesus was deceiving the guy!

If I have some time, later today, I'll try to post another that talks about the function of the Law, which is to show us our sin and to cause us to repent. This is God's grace, in action!

peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Sean asked:

If the works of the law don't justify you in God's eyes, then why try to earn God's favor by attempting to keep it?

Before I answer, may I ask you what you think the phrase "works of the law" means?

Thanks, dmatic

Sean, Please forgive me, if you have answered this already, but if you haven't I'd like to know what you think about this.

I too believe that those who have been redeemed by Y'Shua, are not "under the law".

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Allyn wrote:

Some people are very intellectual but lack common sense. Its like not being able to see the forest for the trees.

So, are you suggesting that paidion lacks common sense? I have not found him to lack in this area. Or are you saying that I lack common sense? That's probably true!~

Thanks for the clarification, though it didn't help. Sorry. The comment still seems crass.

Peace, dmatic

No crassness intended because it was more a statement of exasperation. I will simply never understand one who wants to be justified by works (such as yourself) which puts the focus on you and less on Christ and one who denies Christ in a certain way (as Paidion does) by trying to be intellectual rather than humbly submissive.

[Guest]

I will simply never understand one who wants to be justified by works (such as yourself) which puts the focus on you and less on Christ and one who denies Christ in a certain way (as Paidion does) by trying to be intellectual rather than humbly submissive.

Were these comments grounded in an attitude of humble submissiveness?

[Guest]

I will simply never understand one who wants to be justified by works (such as yourself) which puts the focus on you and less on Christ and one who denies Christ in a certain way (as Paidion does) by trying to be intellectual rather than humbly submissive.

Were these comments grounded in an attitude of humble submissiveness?

There comes a time when one must speak up when one sees another gospel being spoken.

[Guest]

With the length of this thread I think it is possible to write a commentary with respect to this topic.

[Guest]

Sean asked:

If the works of the law don't justify you in God's eyes, then why try to earn God's favor by attempting to keep it?

Before I answer, may I ask you what you think the phrase "works of the law" means?

Thanks, dmatic

Sean, Please forgive me, if you have answered this already, but if you haven't I'd like to know what you think about this.

I too believe that those who have been redeemed by Y'Shua, are not "under the law".

First, you said this in one of your latest posts:

Righteousness is doing what is right. And right is defined by God and His Law.

So righteousness comes by the law then? Are you sure about that?

Here is my answer:

Php 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!
Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
Php 3:4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so:
Php 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
Php 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

Paul counts his righteousness that came from the law as "rubbish". Paul defines your own righteousness as that which comes from the law. This is contrasted with the righteousness that is by faith. They are not the same thing. It would be a good thing not to confuse them.

[Guest]

dmatic,

You have put great stock in Jesus' statement in Matthew 5:17-19 as support for your position:

Matthew 5:17-19 (New King James Version)

17. “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Now it must be noted that a great number of the laws given through Moses are, at least since the Lord destroyed the temple and Jerusalem in 70AD, rendered "passed away", as they are of no relevance and, indeed, any possibility of being obeyed. But even more importantly, what if Jesus could be shown, as I believe, to have abrogated a prominent "divine positive command" of the Mosaic law? What then of "not one jot or tittle". Would we not be forced to say that "all is fulfilled" or else Jesus misspoke?

I found your story of your spiritualizing the command to break the neck of the first born colt to be most interesting. You are headed in the right direction; there is hope. Why don't you spiritualize the Sabbath command (the shadow). As in:

Hebrews 4:1-3 (New International Version)

1. Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2. For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3. Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said,
"So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.'

Hebrews 4:8-10 (New King James Version)

8. For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.


Please do not assume I am antinomian. We are under the Law of Christ. I most emphatically believe that if Jeus is not our Lord, then neither is He our Savior.