Crusader

[_Steve]

Damon,

I'm afraid the lack of detail about your friend's case makes it impossible to analyze. You have said that reality turned out to be the opposite of what was promised. I guess I have to ask, "Promised by whom?" Was this a promise found in the scriptures? A prophetic word given by a minister? An inner impression that was thought to be from the Lord? Without knowing this, there is no possibility of answering your inquiry.

You asked the following question:

"By the way, did Moses, Job, Elijah, or any of these other people ever get answers to sincere prayers that were diametrically opposed to reality, and which, as it turned out, could not come to pass?"

The question seems to imply that the requirement of these men passing their tests is not comparable to your friend's need to pass his/her test, because (you seem to imply) the biblical characters were not tested as sorely as was your friend! I can hardly believe that this is what you are suggesting, but it certainly seems as if you are.

Regardless whether their tests were of exactly the same type or not, they were certainly given occasion to question the goodness and faithfulness of God. Job may not have had specific promises from God, but in his day it was generally assumed that a good man would receive good dealings from God. By living righteously, a man felt he had the right to expect blessing, not a senseless string of disasters. If there was no specific promise to this effect, the idea carried as much weight in the minds of Job and his friends as it would had God Himself said it, so the experience of disillusionment was the same.

Job lost ten children in one day. Are you suggesting that your friend's suffering occasioned greater reasons to question the goodness of God? I don't know if you are married or have children, but you seem incapable of assessing the weight of heartache experienced by one who loses a spouse or a child to death...else you could not so minimize the experiences of loss felt by these biblical heroes.

Every person's suffering differs in detail from that of every other person, but in every case, the devil finds occasion in the trials to raise questions about the goodness of God. Your friend is not unique. "...resist [the devil], knowing that the same afflictions are experienced by your brethren in the world" (1 Pet.5:9). "There has no temptation taken you, but such as is common to man" (1 Cor.10:13).

Abraham had been promised that certain great things would be accomplished through Isaac, and then God told Abraham to kill Isaac before any of these things ever transpired. From Abraham's standpoint, this killing of Isaac (which he fully intended to carry out) was irreversible and would preclude the fulfillment of God's promises, barring some unique miracle, like a resurrection from the dead.

Joseph had been prophetically told in dreams that he would rule over his brothers, then he got sold into slavery in a foreign land. In a dozen years in prison and slavery, there seemed no conceivable way that his dreams could ever come true...but they did.

Moses, at age 40, had foreknowledge that he was chosen by God to deliver Israel from slavery in Egypt, then he was driven into 40 years of exile, during which his entire vision for this died.

David was anointed as king in an obscure village ceremony, with the implicit promise that he would reign in the place of Saul. When he later killed Goliath, and the people extolled David, it must have seemed a wonderful confirmation of this destiny. However, when Saul became jealous and persecuted David, David had to run for his life, hide in caves in the wilderness for years, and experience harrowing brushes with death. We can tell from some of his Psalms that he experienced doubts and asked God, "What's up with that?" a great deal. It must have seemed that he would never really be king, but we know that he eventually realized every blessing that God had promised.

All of these people began with promises or expectations concerning what God would do, but all of them had to experience the death of their vision, and have their faith in God tried severely. Each also experienced the resurrection of their vision from the dead.

Yes, they were tested in the same manner as your friend, but not in the same particulars.

I would like to know where your friend's promise came from, and why he/she still thinks it was a promise from God. Was it interpreted properly, or were assumptions made? Is there no way for even God to resurrect the promised thing?

As I am sure you know, many promises are also conditional, and don't come true when we fail to meet the requisite conditions. This can sometimes explain why some promised situations don't happen.

It sounds like you are sincerely looking for answers here. However, the question and the details of the situation will have to be clearer before an answer of peace can be offered by those who might want to help.

[Guest]

If anything through Steve Gregg's teachings via the internet/tapes, and they are GREAT, I have learned that being a slave to the LORD is most important and guess I like knowing a slave has no rights.....Because, you see, I have endured much pain and loss and almost fell away as I was so upset for so many prayers seemed unanswered and wondered if GOD truly cared.

Many christians today preach a name it claim it gospel and that in itself made me wonder does GOD see my sorrows, oh yeah he's bottled my tears! There is no unrighteousness in GOD!

Steve, thanks for teaching on holiness, separation and being a slave to the one who's always worthy and I love deeply.............


Job 38-40
Job 42:2-3
The LORD went on until Job was overwhelmed..Now Job looked at his problems and said," I've been foolish, Ive had my eyes in the wrong place, on my pain instead of on you. I'd forgotten all these things about you, I know you can do everything. And I know no thought can be withheld from you....

Thou shalt keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on thee
because he trusts in thee.

Gods word is true and men have died for that truth may we be such a person

[_Steve]

You're welcome. I am glad they have helped. Thanks for the encouraging scriptures and testimony.

[Guest]

Damon,

I'm afraid the lack of detail about your friend's case makes it impossible to analyze.

I know. Sorry that I'm being obscure, but I'm also trying to respect my friend's privacy.

You have said that reality turned out to be the opposite of what was promised. I guess I have to ask, "Promised by whom?" Was this a promise found in the scriptures? A prophetic word given by a minister? An inner impression that was thought to be from the Lord? Without knowing this, there is no possibility of answering your inquiry.

A promise given in answer to prayer through the aegis of the Holy Spirit, not through the Scriptures nor through a minister. And like I said before, other promises from God to my friend have been fulfilled before. Why should this one be different?

You asked the following question:

"By the way, did Moses, Job, Elijah, or any of these other people ever get answers to sincere prayers that were diametrically opposed to reality, and which, as it turned out, could not come to pass?"

The question seems to imply that these men passing their tests were not comparable to your friend's need to pass his/her test because (you seem to imply) they were not tested as sorely as was your friend. I can hardly believe that this is what you are suggesting, but it certainly seems as if you are.

No I'm not. It's not the degree to which my friend has been tested that I'm questioning. It's being promised something that did not and now cannot come to pass.

Also, Jeremiah's trial seems the closest to what my friend is going through, as far as I can see. Jeremiah said at one point, "[God,] you have deceived me, and I was deceived. You have forced me, and I was forced." (Jer. 20:7) The sense of the Hebrew for "forced" is of being sexually assaulted or raped, violating one's free agency to choose. (Compare Deut. 22:25, where the same word - "chazaq" - is used.) It seems that God didn't give Jeremiah a choice as to what he would have to go through as His prophet. Moreover, God apparently wasn't completely honest with Jeremiah about it, either.

My friend has felt the same way for about three years now. The only difference is that what God promised my friend is now impossible, as far as I can see.

[snip]

Joseph had been prophetically told in dreams that he would rule over his brothers, then he got sold into slavery in a foreign land. In a dozen years in prison and slavery, there seemed no conceivable way that his dreams could ever come true...but they did.

Now that's interesting. Thank you for pointing this out.

Moses, at age 40, had foreknowledge that he was chosen by God to deliver Israel from slavery in Egypt, then he was driven into 40 years of exile, during which his entire vision for this died.

Where do you see that Moses had foreknowledge, at age 40, of being chosen to deliver Israel from Egypt? I don't see that in the text.

The rest of the examples you gave aren't quite the same. Even with the example of Abraham - having a son at age 75 (and age 65 for Sarah) was just as impossible then, when God first gave that promise, as it was 25 years later, as far as I can see. It wasn't as if it started out looking like it could happen and then suddenly looked like it was impossible. That's what's been so mind-screwing, if you'll pardon my language. Also, Abraham was being called on to sacrifice Isaac after one "impossible" promise had already been fulfilled, and that probably gave him the faith and the emotional fortitude to obey God in his circumstance. My friend hasn't had that same benefit.

The example of Joseph does give me pause for thought, though. Thank you.

I would like to know where your friend's promise came from, and why he/she still thinks it was a promise from God. Was it interpreted properly, or were assumptions made? Is there no way for even God to resurrect the promised thing?

Maybe, but it would involve setting my friend's whole heart on a miracle when their heart has been left in limbo, suffering and in pain because there was still a chance for God's promise to come to pass, for three years now. There comes a point when one just doesn't have any more emotional fortitude to wait for something like that.

That's why I'm at a loss.

As I am sure you know, many promises are also conditional, and don't come true when we fail to meet the requisite conditions. This can sometimes explain why some promised situations don't happen.

We'd thought of that, but as a matter of fact, God's precise words to my friend were, "I'm determined [to make this come to pass]." It was apparently an unconditional promise.

It sounds like you are sincerely looking for answers here. However, the question and the details of the situation will have to be clearer before an answer of peace can be offered by those who might want to help.

I understand, but I don't feel comfortable giving any more details. It would be a betrayal of a confidence, IMHO, and I don't want to go there.

Damon

[Guest]

Damom

When I was born again I realized that God was real,that I was a sinner and that He had delivered me into His Kingdom. The change was supernatural. The Bible was now alive. I had a relationship with God and as His child He was teaching me,feeding me and careing for me like a father. That was in 1974 and from that day to now the realization that He is real is ever present . Its in a lesser but simliar way equivilent to standing in front of El Captian....I can behold it..its real, how could I doubt it. Much more the foundational truth of my new birth both through experience and the testimony of Gods Word secures me.. I begin by baseing my relationship with Him through this union of new birth and forgiveness of sins. While reading His Word I grow and with it my faith. I didnt build my faith on answered or unanswered prayers...God wasnt there to serve me...I was there to love and serve Him. Through the 30 years God has kept me....healed me...and proved His faithfulness many many times....I remember them all. Like the blind man when questioned by the religious leaders " all I know is I was blind and now I see" and sometimes that just about the gist of it. We cant look in peoples hearts and see them...but God can. He deals with everyone individually and knows whats best. He works on His own time table also. So to me faith is a part of a living vital relationship...day by day and I can pout and get angry with God at times...but in the long and short of it....Hes more real to me than anything else. That happened on the day I met Him and just grew. I have fallen away twice from Him and He brought me back. Much like our kids think thier lost in Wal Mart and frantic..we can find them quickely and return them to our fold. So can God. If its troubleing you about God answering this persons prayer I would let it go and rekindle your relationship with Him.We shouldnt let the things we dont know corrupt the things we do know. Two thousand years ago God the Son became a man,allowed Himself to be crucified,and rose from the dead...that alone is enough to tell me He cares and loves this stubborn rebellious world. Remember one thing if you want to beleive there are a multitude of concrete reasons why you can and should beleive in Him.

   "He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God– 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. "

Lord Bless You

Steve

[_Steve]

Damon,

To your questions raised in the last post:

The scripture that tells us that Moses, at age 40, knew he was to deliver Israel from Egypt is Acts 7:23-25.

You wrote: "other promises from God to my friend have been fulfilled before. Why should this one be different?" I guess my experience has taught me that, when I think I am hearing God's voice, I am sometimes right, and sometimes mistaken. I think the same could be true for others, including your friend.

Really, if the previous promises your friend had received had proved to be true, as you said, then they had the true fingerprints of God upon them, and they confirm that God does keep His promises. But prophecies that don't come true are not from God (Deut.18:22), though those who receive the "revelation" probably think that they are at the time.

I don't want to second-guess you about the nature of your friend's situation, since you do not choose to disclose it, but there are few situations that I can think of that are truly irreversible, other than a case where someone has died, or where someone who was a potential mate ends up marrying someone else. I have experienced both of these irreversible situations, contrary to what some people thought God had told them concerning them.

I have had a spouse die. Several people in the church were convinced that God told them she would rise again, which they prayed for, but she didn't. I assume they were mistaken about hearing God on this.

A woman, whom I thought God told me I would marry, ended up marrying someone else, and three women, who all thought God told them that they would marry me, all turned out to be mistaken, as I married someone else.

There are too many possibilities of human error or misunderstanding in cases like these to force us to the position that God is the one who defaulted on a promise.

[Guest]

Damon,

To your questions raised in the last post:

The scripture that tells us that Moses, at age 40, knew he was to deliver Israel from Egypt is Acts 7:23-25.

Ah. Sorry, I was only looking in Exodus for this. This also answers another question I had about why Moses would murder the Egyptian. My thought was that it was because Moses did not have faith in God at that point, because otherwise he would have believed that justice could be had without resorting to murder. It seems I was mistaken, although it does raise another question. Did Moses then lose his faith in God until the incident with the burning bush?

I'm asking that because he didn't circumcise his son, which was part of the covenant that God had given to his forefathers. It would also make sense that for a time, Moses was disillusioned. Moses had compassion on the Israelites and I'm sure that his heart burned within him that they should suffer in Egypt while he was free and that God should do nothing. Eventually God did use him to bring them out of Egypt, though.

This incident also strikes a personal chord with me because the situation with my friend involves standing up for what's right, no matter how difficult that might be. That's not the whole of the situation, but it is a major part of it.

As an aside, it's interesting that God "murdered" the Egyptians in order to redeem Israel from Egypt, seemingly in parallel with how Moses dealt with the Egyptian. I've always wondered if God did it that way because of what Moses did. Perhaps if Moses had found a different way of exacting justice, God would have as well, and it was meant as a lesson to Moses. *shrugs* I'm just not sure.

You wrote: "other promises from God to my friend have been fulfilled before. Why should this one be different?" I guess my experience has taught me that, when I think I am hearing God's voice, I am sometimes right, and sometimes mistaken. I think the same could be true for others, including your friend.

I don't believe that to be the case, and the reason why is because of how we've both tested it. I'm sure you're familiar with the passage about testing whether a prophet is true, right? If it doesn't come to pass, the prophet is a false prophet. Well, we're not exactly dealing with a prophet or prophecy here, but rather a promise of God. Forgetting for a moment measuring the authenticity of this promise and whether it's of God based on whether it comes to pass, we also considered the motive for the promise. Is it coming from love and truth, both in regards to my friend as well as the others involved? We both concluded that beyond any shadow of a doubt, it was. It's in line with other promises that God made, and later fulfilled, to my friend. Unlike those others, though, this has resulted in an enormous test of faith, way beyond anything my friend has ever experienced before.

Furthermore, if this promise wasn't from God whereas the others were, how could God expect us to discern whether it wasn't from Him if there was never any indication that it wasn't, and seemingly an ongoing indication from God that it was? Every time my friend prayed about whether God was involved and whether they were following His will, the answer was always "yes." The answer was also often elaborated on, and again we would test it to see if it measured up to the standard of love and truth. If that was just a lying spirit, why would God allow my friend to be deceived to that degree? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

I don't want to second-guess you about the nature of your friend's situation, since you do not choose to disclose it, but there are few situations that I can think of that are truly irreversible...

[snip]

There are too many possibilities of human error or misunderstanding in cases like these to force us to the position that God is the one who defaulted on a promise.

Well, that's the problem. If it's error or human misunderstanding, then it's been on an ongoing basis without any intervention from God, on top of being held to the standard of love and truth.

Damon
PS. You're up awful late answering posts, aren't you?

[Guest]

"Several people in the church were convinced that God told them she would rise again"

Well, I guess they are right, but not in the way that they thought!

"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess 4:13-18 )"

[Guest]

"I don't believe that to be the case, and the reason why is because of how we've both tested it. I'm sure you're familiar with the passage about testing whether a prophet is true, right? If it doesn't come to pass, the prophet is a false prophet. Well, we're not exactly dealing with a prophet or prophecy here, but rather a promise of God. Forgetting for a moment measuring the authenticity of this promise and whether it's of God based on whether it comes to pass, we also considered the motive for the promise. Is it coming from love and truth, both in regards to my friend as well as the others involved? We both concluded that beyond any shadow of a doubt, it was. It's in line with other promises that God made, and later fulfilled, to my friend. Unlike those others, though, this has resulted in an enormous test of faith, way beyond anything my friend has ever experienced before.

Furthermore, if this promise wasn't from God whereas the others were, how could God expect us to discern whether it wasn't from Him if there was never any indication that it wasn't, and seemingly an ongoing indication from God that it was? Every time my friend prayed about whether God was involved and whether they were following His will, the answer was always "yes." The answer was also often elaborated on, and again we would test it to see if it measured up to the standard of love and truth. If that was just a lying spirit, why would God allow my friend to be deceived to that degree? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever"

To me this seems like your almost looking for a reason to doubt God,we know that if in the equation something is missing its on our part not Gods. I dont know you so I am hoping this isnt the case.Have you ever noticed Christians dont pray for Jesus promise" in the world you will have much tribulation." We seem to like the blessing ones...God always answers prayers and since Hes God and omniscient quite probable the answer was worked out in a way you cant understand. Its also possible that the timing isnt what your looking for and its on a different schedule. When we make ultimatums and base them on how we expect God to act, based upon a promise, we are trying to in a subtle way manipulate God. How we should be, is thankful that we are redeemed. To expect certain results sets us up a the controller and thats up to the Lord. I can understand your frusration but what Ive leanred all these years is that Hes right all the time. If you have an issue with Him then you should take it to Him in prayer and get it resolved...He will meet you in prayer and give you an answer. Do you think God wants this confusion in your life? No. He says if we lack wisdom ask Him. The thing thats always amazed me it that Jesus cares about the little things in our lives. I can tell you with full assurance that He can and will meet your needs. Doubt comes from many areas and the enemy likes us to get into that arena,look at Adam and Eve,the Devil started them down the doubting road. Things Ive learned is not to lean on my own understanding,the ungodly,and this world. God is faithful....this I can tell you.

My favorite saying" Dont crucify yourself you will use rubber nails,let Jesus crucify you He was a carpenter"

Steve

[Guest]

To me this seems like your almost looking for a reason to doubt God,we know that if in the equation something is missing its on our part not Gods. I dont know you so I am hoping this isnt the case.

No, it isn't the case, and thank you very much for being sensitive and not making the assumption that it is. I want to believe in and trust in God. I've been a Christian ever since I was 17 years old, but I've always questioned what I believed and why I believed. Now I feel like I'm being forced to decide if either:

1) God is a liar and doesn't keep His promises, or
2) God will eventually bring a miracle to pass, but in the meantime a dear friend of mine has lost their faith, and it pains me greatly to see them suffer like that with no answers from on high.

Have you ever noticed Christians dont pray for Jesus promise" in the world you will have much tribulation." We seem to like the blessing ones...

Yes, I myself have gone through difficult times. Probably nowhere near as difficult as some of the others on this forum, from what they've mentioned of their own trials, but nevertheless it's no great surprise to me that trials come. In fact, I can often see what God is trying to work out in me personally through the trials that come my way. I'm only at a loss to understand what my friend is going through, and for what purpose.

God always answers prayers and since Hes God and omniscient quite probable the answer was worked out in a way you cant understand. Its also possible that the timing isnt what your looking for and its on a different schedule.

I'm certainly open to either case, but in the meantime, like I said, a dear friend of mine is suffering with no answers from God.

[snip]

I can understand your frusration but what Ive leanred all these years is that Hes right all the time. If you have an issue with Him then you should take it to Him in prayer and get it resolved...He will meet you in prayer and give you an answer.

I've prayed about it but I'm not getting any sort of answer, only more questions.

Thanks for trying your best to comfort me, though. I appreciate that.

Damon