Sabbath Observance: 3 Views

[Guest]

STEVE7150 wrote:

dmatic, I'm suggesting the Sabbath command was for the people who God took out of Egypt. Now if you want to extend "out of Egypt" to mean also "out of sin" then from your prespective , you should follow the Sabbath but i don't see a definitive connection.
I previously said to you that IMO Jesus did not keep the Sabbath and you were very much taken aback but keep in mind a couple of things.
1. Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath.
2. The Sabbath was made for man not the other way around.
3. John the Apostle himself said that Jesus broke the Sabbath , "This is why the jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath" John 5.18
4. On another occassion Jesus said he works everyday just as his Father does.

I believe our rest is in Christ himself , no longer in a day per se.

Steve, the things that happened to the children of Israel are for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the age are come. Seriously, you have never heard the teaching that our "bondage" to sin, equates with their bondage to Egypt? That our "passover" experience equates with theirs? (Justification by faith) Their Pentecost experience and the giving of the Law should also be ours personally? (Sanctification) That the Feast of tabernacles, pictures our glorification and entry into the "promised land" of our glorified bodies?

Interesting.

Jesus did not violate the sabbath command. If He would have, He would have sinned, and we know that He was perfect and is the Perfect Lamb of God...There was no fault in Him. Still isn't!

He did however, "violate" the teachings and traditions of men. The "Churchmen" of His day accused Him of violating the command of God, but they had added many burdens that the people were not able to endure, nor were these added burdens God's intent. In fact, that was one of Jesus' harshest criticisms of the churchmen of His day...that they had made God's commandments of none effect and were teaching the commandments of men as if they were God's! They falsely represented God and were misleading the people by adding and subtracting form God's instructions! (This is similar to what Thomas is counseling those of us who wish to follow God's command. He is telling us, wrongly, that we need to do as the very people Jesus told us not to follow do!)

As soon as I can try to answer some of the objections yet within this thread, I plan to again get back to Mr. Gregg's article and address some of his misrepresentations. One of them is one that you seem also to hold; that Jesus did not keep the sabbath day holy.

Just to address this false idea quickly, we see in Luke 4:16 a passage that shows that Jesus' "custom" was to go into the synagogue on the sabbath day. (This "custom" is from the word 'etho', which has a meaning of "a custom, usage, prescribed by law", according to Strong's) Jesus did, however, correct the mis-teachings of the churchmen, by pointing out David eating the showbread, and priests "violating" their opinions of what was lawful to do on the sabbath, yet they were without sin, by doing what they did on the sabbath. He declared then that it was lawful to do good on the sabbath day!
In other words, He also pointed out that any owner of sheep or oxen would rescue one of them if it had fallen into a pit on that day! This would not be against God's instructions to keep it holy! It was not, however, obedient to harvest a field on the sabbath day. But, the disciples were not "harvesting", as they "harvested" a few grains of wheat or corn on the sabbath day when they were hungry! Harvesting would be defined as a labor that one did to earn his income, whereas picking some of the grains, was not toward that end.

So Jesus reproved them for their mistakes concerning the heart of God's purpose for the sabbath day holy command. he wanted them to not do what they ordinarily did, as they worked their fields and otherwise provided for their daily needs. He wanted them and all others to rest on that day, from their profane work.

The command is still relevant for us today! It is a blessing to keep it holy!

It is an honor to be invited by the God of the Universe to keep His sabbath day holy! There is great joy in the keeping of His commandments. They are not burdensome as some seem to complain. God has given them to us because He loves us!

For those who "spiritualize" the command, and not keep it while living in the flesh, I understand what they are trying to say; that we cease from our own labors...regarding "justification". I agree! However, we need to learn respect and obedience to God's commands too, and learn to be faithful in following His instructions....even with things that we may consider small. If we are faithful in the little things, we will also be faithful in the larger things.

Not that the sabbath command is a little command! But, you suggest that we who are in Christ, have entered the rest and so every day is a sabbath for us....but this neglects the command's other instruction regarding work. We are commanded to work the other six days! How, then, can we keep this part of the command if we never work? The scripture also tells us that if we don't work, neither should we eat.

If you're willing to not eat.....then I can agree that you need not work those other six days...but most of us are not quite that spiritual yet.

Hope that helps.

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Hola dmatic:

As you do not follow the sabbath rules as established by the Levites etc.
, would it be too much to ask what body or person interprets these Laws for you?

That is how do you know that you are properly observing the Sabbath and by who's standard?

Thomas

[Guest]

Thomas asked:

would it be too much to ask what body or person interprets these Laws for you?

Not at all. The head and body of Christ instruct me, in accordance with Col.2:16-17, and His Holy Spirit according to 1 John 2:27.

Thanks for asking.

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Hi Dmatic,
Col. 2:16-17
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ

The way I understood chapter 2 is that there are people who were criticizing the Christians for not following the sabbath that is why Paul told them not to worry about what they say because Sabbath is just a shadow of or a symbol of things to come and the reality is found in Christ.

How do you understand chpter 2?

[Guest]

Paulespino, I have a bit of a different take on the verses in question, that I've paraphrased without the additions of the italicized words that were added by the KJ people, so that it reads: Let no man, but the body of Christ, teach (judge) you regarding the keeping of sabbaths and holy days etc, because these are a shadow of things yet to come (and are therefore, important!).

In other words, Paul was instructing these Colossians not to allow their former pagan friends to teach them, or condemn them for following the instructions of the body of Christ about these important commandments!

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Homer, I appreciated and agree with your comment about the law being undivided into categories, when you wrote:

I know it is popular today to classify the law into legal, ceremonial, and moral categories, but that is a distinction unthought of by any of the New Testament writers. Seems to me The Law stands or falls as a whole.

Yet, I am not sure you got the 2 Cor. 3 passage correct if you write:

Paul, in 2 Corinthians 3, speaks of the "10" themselves as being done away.

What Paul said was "passing away" was the "glory" that was fading on Moses' face when he received them form God. In fact, Paul says that the veil still remains on those who read Moses today....in that they don't see the glory yet. But the veil is removed in Christ! Then the glory is revealed! The Law of God is glorious! It is spiritual and undying! The Law of God reveals the wonderful thought process of our glorious Heavenly Father!

So, to say that the ten commandments themselves have passed away is false. According to our Savior, the Messiah, these commandments will not pass away until heaven and earth pass away! Only God knows when that will occur. But the fact remains. That, just as the heavens and earth are still here, so too, is the beautiful Law of God!

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Sean asked:

So was the Jerusalem council in error? (Acts 15)

No Sean, I don't think they were in error with their decision not to require uncircumcised adult Gentile males to become circumcised to keep the law of Moses.

The testimony they all heard and had experienced convinced them, correctly, that God was saving even them! This certainly surprised them, because they had been taught to believe that they were special, and that God considered the rest of humanity as "dogs", whereas He showed favoritism to "Jews". But, they couldn't deny that God was proving Himself impartial to the Gentiles too!

It is obvious to me that they were not meeting to decide whether or not the Gentiles should be taught, and encouraged to obey, the commandments of God as given through Moses. This was understood, as they were aware of the fact that Gentiles could go to the synagogues every sabbath, in every city, to hear Moses read, and then gradually apply what they were hearing! (Synagogue, btw, is simply an assembly or meeting of the people in every city) Not every person had access to their own personal copy of the scriptures, but every city or someone from there may have. Thus, it was a problem, for the Gentiles to hear the Law, and find out even what the commandments were. So the "Jews" meeting in Jerusalem realized that they had grown up with the Torah, but the Gentiles had not! How were they going to learn all that they knew? They decided to give the Gentiles encouragement with knowledge of their acceptance of them, and began by giving them four of the Laws of Moses to begin with. Three dietary laws, and the other having to do with illegal sexual relations and what to avoid. With this start, they encouraged the Gentiles that they would do well!

If the Council had conlcluded what many mistakenly assume they concluded (that none of the Law of Moses should be taught to, or kept by, the Gentiles) then why did they give them four laws from Moses to keep? Why not just give them the two greatest from Moses? (Deut. 6:5) "Love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind and strength" and "Love thy neighbor as thyself" (Lev 19:18b)

The Council, for reasons the Spirit knows, realized it was important to get them started in their new lives, by mentioning adherence to specific laws of Moses, that they may not have been aware of, coming from the backgrounds they had come from.

I must admit that I don't yet understand what "yoke" they, nor their fathers could bear, was!

If they were saying that obedience to God's righteous commandments is unreasonalbe, I do think they were mistaken. If they were saying that nobody could keep God's standards, then I believe they were mistaken. If they were saying that being circumcised as a child was a yoke they couldn't bear, then they were mistaken. However, they may have been implying the whole sacrificial system.....but as I said, I'm not sure what they meant.

Do you have an idea what this yoke was, that neither they, nor their fathers could bear?

Do you obedience to God is possible?

Hope this advances our discussion.

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

dmatic,

You wrote:

What Paul said was "passing away" was the "glory" that was fading on Moses' face when he received them form God.

I do not see how you can come to this conclusion!

2 Corinthians 3:6-11 (New King James Version)

6. who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The new covenant is not of the letter (the law) which kills (the ministry of death) but is of the spirit.

7. But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, ...

There can be no mistaking Paul's reference here. He denominates the Ten Commandments as "the ministry of death".

...so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8. how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

Moses' glorious countenance faded away, and is exceeded by the glory of the ministry of the Spirit.

9. For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

The "ministry of comdemnation", "the law kills", "the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones", all referring to the law! Though it had glory, it is far exceeded by the teachings of Jesus! By comparison, the law has no glory! The law, at the time Paul wrote, was passing away and the New Covenant remains.

I find it most interesting that on the day Moses came down from the mountain with the law, 3000 died. On the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit came and 3000 souls were saved. Quite a contrast.

For any interested, this is the best I have ever read on the law and its place under the new covenent:

The Sermon on the Law

[Guest]

Hi Dmatic,

Paulespino, I have a bit of a different take on the verses in question, that I've paraphrased without the additions of the italicized words that were added by the KJ people, so that it reads: Let no man, but the body of Christ, teach (judge) you regarding the keeping of sabbaths and holy days etc, because these are a shadow of things yet to come (and are therefore, important!).

The italicized words in the King James Bible are words that were added by the translators to help the reader. This is usually necessary when translating from one language to another because word meanings and idioms change. So, to produce a more readable translation, the King James translators (1604- 1611) added certain words to the Bible text. However, to make sure that everyone understood that these words were not in the available manuscripts they set them in italics.

Imagine the confusion which would arise if the translators had not used the italicized words:
For example:

"Salvation unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah."
This is Psalm 3:8 with one italicized word omitted. As you can see, the reading implies that the Lord needs to be saved! The correct reading is:
"Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah."

Not only that if we will choose to omit the italize words in Colossian 2:16-17 we might as well omit all the italize words in the KJV. Another alternative is to read the bible in the original language in which it was translated.

[Guest]

thank you for your response Homer. I have but a few minutes here, now, but will address your thoughts next time, Lord willing. But I did want to comment on your last paragraphs:

The "ministry of comdemnation", "the law kills", "the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones", all referring to the law! Though it had glory, it is far exceeded by the teachings of Jesus! By comparison, the law has no glory! The law, at the time Paul wrote, was passing away and the New Covenant remains.

I find it most interesting that on the day Moses came down from the mountain with the law, 3000 died. On the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit came and 3000 souls were saved. Quite a contrast.

For any interested, this is the best I have ever read on the law and its place under the new covenent:

I am interested to read the sermon, and will print it to read later. Thank you.

It is interesting to note the facts of the three thousand isn't it?

Certainly, we note that the Israelites, in their beginning, did not know how to use the sword of the spirit, so they used their physical swords back then. The sword of the spirit, is sharper and is able to divide between soul and spirit, and is able to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart.

So, we see the results that three thousand were "taken away" , or cut off, by the physical sword, but three thousand were added to the body, with the spiritual sword. Circumcision of the flesh is necessary. Initially, it is done in the flesh, which prophesies of the spiritual circumcision of the heart. Both, seem necessary to progress in the growth toward being made complete, in the image of God.

Similarly, if the Israelites knew how to use the sword of the spirit, upon entering the promised land, they could have converted those inhabitants of the land, instead of killing them with the physical sword. But, they didn't know, yet. Similarly, the kingdom of God suffer violence even today, because people do not know how to use the sword of the spirit.

the law of God has not, nor will it, pass away...until heaven and earth pass away and its purpose has been fulfilled....and all are agreeing with it and are keeping its righteous precepts.

The glory did pass away. The Law did not! Jesus came to magnify it, and make it "sharper", deeper, magnified. The more one studies the law of God, which converts the soul....into submission to the spiritual mind....(which is similar to a wife being in submission to her husband), the more he/she understands the Author of Life, and is transformed into a spiritually led, and spiritually minded, being, and is subject to God's Law, and finds peace and harmony with Him. The soulish mind, cannot submit, or subject itself to the spirit, so we see a case of that woman Jezebel, who tries to make the spirit submit to it. In this sense the soul that sins must die... Die to itself...and its desire to rule usurping the rightful rule of the Spirit of God. Thus, this "death" is necessary, before the soul can be reborn or set free into the freedom of liberty of the children of God, who are in submission to His will. This "death" can happen by the sword of the spirit, or, if one refuses to allow the Laws of God to be written within, the physical sword that comes with disobedient rebellion.

Just as we have received an earnest of the spirit, we await the glory that will be revealed in us. This "earnest" glory, seems to fade, but when we have been transformed, and receive the glorification, prophesied in the fulfillment of the Feast of Tabernacles, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is in full glory!

The Law is a beautiful thing. So is Life. When one sees beyond our normal vision, one can even see that "death" is a beautiful thing too. Indeed, God even loves the death of His saints! we too, can see that death will be overcome...when we are glorified by Him. This is what we lack....we lack the glory...(we fall short of the glory of God)...but death will be overcome, and we will live. We no longer will insist on having our soul's, so-to-speak, rule us, but we will be in subjection to His spirit, united with Him in "marriage".

Still, there is enmity within us. Our soulish fleshly mind, warring against our spirit. The contest will not be won by throwing away the law, but will be won by the Spirit of God, when we finally see that we need not "fear" submission to Him. He is so loving and kind. When we come into agreement with Him, rather than fight against His rule, we will find freedom from sin. This is why Jesus came....to set us free from our sin. To set us free from our disobedience to His righteous and loving Law.

I had been granted some extra time on the computer.....but will try to answer you other objections next time, Lord willing...Until then, please know that the Law has not passed away. The Law itself is good and holy and spiritual! It is our stubborness that needs to die!

Peace, dmatic