The United Methodist Church, re: universal salvation

[Guest]

Greetings

I've been considering joining the United Methodist Church for years. My first exposure to "Methodism" was as a teen, having gone to their summer church camp two years in a row (I grew up pentecostal). Since then, I got to know a UMC pastor, who was a fellow student of mine at Central Bible College (A/G). I had talks with him about becoming a Methodist then (in the early 1980s) as I had become an amillennnialist while at CBC, and knew I couldn't be in the A/G as a result. This pastor explained that, while there were a significant number of theologically liberal Christians, and churches, in the UMC; I could "have a place" in the denomination (what with my being theologically conservative). This pastor graduated from CBC, and left while I was still a student: We never really finished our talks....

About 20 years later...and moving back to my small town in Ohio...I met some more Methodists and found out that they were actually "Bible-believing, born-again Christians". You know, saved! (I really didn't know if the UMC had become totally liberal or not by this time). A year or so later I went on an Emmaus Walk (a UMC sponsored weekend retreat) which was paid for by a local church and a friend of mine in it (I was unemployed at the time).

In the interim between my getting to know the UMC pastor at college and moving back to Ohio, I had gotten on the internet (circa 2000). Since then I've looked into what Methodists believe on the web and, to my surprise, a majority of UMC people and churches are theologically conservative; I didn't know this!

The denomination is officially theologically conservative but, yet, "allows" theological liberals to remain in the denomination. Since I moved back to Ohio, the UMC had a General Conference in Columbus (I can't recall offhand, perhaps in 2004). This event was covered by WRFD (Christian radio) there. Talk show host, Bob Birney, a fundamentalist and Baptist, "applauded" the UMC's official stance on marriage in the Conference as being "between a man and a woman."

This was when I was convinced that I could potentially become a Methodist. However, I've continued to do research so I could rest assured that I would not be contributing to any liberal agendas, should I join the UMC.

The following is part of this research. Though I found this information about two years ago, I'm offering it here as "FYI" -- as opposed to having a debate about it. I have further comments (below).

Does The United Methodist Church believe in universal salvation?

While these statements of doctrine {in the UMC Articles of Religion} state that salvation is AVAILABLE to all persons, they stop short of saying that salvation is GUARANTEED to all persons. There is the stated or implied condition that, while God's grace is necessary for salvation and that humankind cannot in any way attain salvation without God, that there is certainly an element of awareness and cooperation on our part to order our lives after the image of Christ if we have the capacity to do so.

There are persuasive arguments that include the faithful, thoughtful, and respectful use of Scripture on both sides-- affirming and denying universal salvation. The Book of Discipline, which is the only official printed voice of the UMC, does not make a statement specifically about universal salvation. This places the question in a possible gray area, but the Discipline says what it says. One must read the doctrine there and attempt to understand it as well as possible.

Rev. Dr. Diana Hynson
Director of Learning and Teaching Ministries in the Congregation
General Board of Discipleship

(I'm unsure of the dating on this, probably fairly recent)

My comments center on the second paragraph.

The first sentence reminds me of what Steve says about universalism in his "three views of hell" lectures, on this forum, and on TNP radio. As I stated before, during the "universalist debate" that lasted a month or two recently; I simply disagree with universalist theology and liberal types theologies in general. In one sense, I disagree with this first sentence (above). Let me explain.

I can see, e.g., that universalist writers like Thomas Talbott, believe they are being "faithful, thoughtful, and respectful" in their use of Scripture but I (strongly) disagree with their opinions and/or conclusions....

At any rate, there are, apparently, both liberal and conservative thinkers in the UMC on this topic, as Rev. Hynson wrote (above). I haven't researched this out but am sure articles by UMC authors, pro and con (universalism), can be found. I assume that those who "affirm and deny" universal salvation in the UMC express views that are probably essentially the same as those which were presented in the debate on this forum; each following their liberal or conservative hermeneutic in kind.

I'm encouraged that the UMC makes no specific statement about universal salvation. This follows my own beliefs and/or is compatible with them. Not to debate it at all, but this would be in keeping with my belief that the Bible is silent on the matter (full well knowing that others disagree with this).

I can accept that the question of universal salvation is in a "possible gray area" (as written above). Note that Rev. Hynson didn't say "a gray area" but one that could only possibly be so. So it seems that, while the UMC allows for differences of opinion in this matter; it is NOT a gray area in UMC theology. Again, the UMC stands over on the conservative side, theologically. This is a "plus" for me in terms of my joining the denomination.

Now.

Being that I've known about and examined universalism since about 1978; and have discussed and debated it twice online (2003 @ Beliefnet; 2007, here); it is time to move on to other important matters, which I've done since this past December, leaving the universalist debate behind....

I just may find "my place" in The United Methodist Church and am taking further steps to see about it.

Thanks for reading,
Rick

P.S. I could have put this on my (not many entries yet) blog....maybe later!

[Guest]

Hey Rick,

I was raised in a United Methodist Church, and as you know, serve as a part-time pastor with the denomination. That doesn't make me an expert - just someone who has some opinions. Take them for what they're worth ...

I believe that you are correct in observing that the UMC is mostly theologically conservative, while leaving plenty of room for liberal views. In fact, I think many UMs pride themselves on their generous attitudes towards others who are not like-minded. The UMC trademark is "open hearts, open minds, open doors." That slogan is probably true for many congregations.

Regarding Universalism: I can safely say that in all of my years of attending a UMC, I have never once encountered the idea. I would venture to guess that most UMs in my area (Western Pennsylvania) probably never even heard of the concept. Perhaps there are a few pastors here or there who teach it to their congregations, but it hasn't reached my ears.

I have not found the UMC pushing theological dogma to its pastors or congregations. Most pastors have a lot of liberty on what they will preach, and how they will influence their congregations. To me, that's a good thing. Of course there are some limits to this freedom, but all in all it does not seem terribly unreasonable.

Because the UMC does not press its theological posture too harshly against me, I do not have a problem with them in that area. The area that I DO have a problem with is as follows ...

The UMC is a very large institution with considerable holdings. It has some well-paid bishops, staff, and district superintendents. Their salaries ultimately come from the local churches. Therefore, they have a vested interest in the local church. Actually, the UMC OWNS the local church building. If the church closes or decides to leave the denomination, they will be legally locked out of their own building - which they probably paid for out of their own pockets.

A pastor who does not teach and preach Wesley doctrine will not even get the attention of his superiors. However, if that same pastor's church is not paying their annual "tax" to the Conference, their phone will sooner or later ring.

Two years ago I attended a day with the Bishop of our conference. He met with the pastors of the area and then showed a 30min film about realizing your goals. If someone would have walked in after the opening prayer, they would have thought they stumbled in on just another "positive thinking" seminar put on by the CEO of a large corporation to its managers. The film was completely secular. I was never so frustrated in all of my life. Wesley would have been calling his pastors to a life of prayer, devotion, and methodical service. If Wesley would have walked in on us he would have fainted. If Jesus would have been there ... man …

What I am saying is this ... the UMC most certainly allows liberty from its congregations and pastors regarding theological matters. However, one cannot forget that it also has a "business" to run, and that is where it will sometimes draw the line.

peace,

dane

[Guest]

Hello Dane,

Thanks for your reply. (Readers: Dane and I have been discussing the UMC by email; he has been helping me with UMC-info and giving me advice about it, etc.).

Though it may be off-topic for this forum; I understand, Dane, what you said about church buildings, UMC leadership, theological-liberty (and I have no problem re: Wesleyan distinctives!), and on the "seminar" thing.

On this latter, we had (clickit for info >) I'm OK--You're OK as the week's theme in the UMC summer camp I went to one year (I think it was my first of two years). To this day, I remember basically everything that was taught (I was 14 or 15).

I knew nothing about Methodists then. In fact, I think my Dad opposed my going to the camp because he probably felt the UMC was a "modernist" (liberal) church. Mom, I'm quite sure, had to talk Dad into letting me go.

But the fact of it is, "I'm OK--You're OK" is, indeed, a secular and perhaps, even an anti-christian system of psychology. I remember sitting there as the teacher taught us wondering, "When will he talk about God?" I don't remember if he ever made any biblical applications or if he used the Scriptures at all. "Maybe Dad is right?" I pondered. "These Methodists are sincere people but...are they born-again Christians?"....

At the end of the week a real preacher came to camp and we all had communion, Methodist style (in the breaking of a big loaf of bread). I had never done it like that, as we had those tiny cracker-wafers in a plate they pass around in my pentecostal church.

I took the communion even though I knew I was backslidden. Everyone else was doing it, and no one said anything about, "Are you a Christian?" I thought it was strange to offer communion without asking about that. I know that some of my friends who were there were actually atheists! But they took the communion also....

Well, anyway.
(Backslidden though I was, I recall God speaking to me...about that)!!!!

And thanks again, Dane. Think we should just keep doing the emails? Btw, I talked with that pastor tonite about seeing him (on the things we emailed about).

I'm OK--You're OK, Dane!
In Christ...that would be!
Rick