Gay Christians

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_Rae
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Post by _Rae » Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:40 pm

I don't think you can compare biblical church discipline to killing someone.

And I thought church discipline was for someone who wouldn't repent. If they repent (even a lot of times) then the church discipline stops.
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_Steve
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Post by _Steve » Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:51 pm

I agree with Rae. Practicing church discipline is the opposite of casting stones. It is intended to be redemptive, and is what we assume a true Christian would ultimately want done to him. Children don't enjoy being disciplined, either, but when they have matured, they appreciate the fact that their parents did not leave them to live out their self-destructive patterns of behavior without correction. "No discipline seems, at the time, joyous, but grievous. However, afterward, it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who are exercised by it" (paraphrased from Heb.12).

All of us struggle with sins, it is true. But the functional word here is "struggle." Many are content in their sin, and surrender without a struggle. That is not the same.
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_Father_of_five
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Post by _Father_of_five » Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:28 pm

Rae and Steve,

Your points good. All I am saying is that if we don't apply church discipline consitently we are then playing favorites. If you disfellowship the gay man, you better do the same with the adulterer, drunkard, wife beater, back-biter, complainer, disobedient to parents, etc. I'm not advocating looking the other way, but I just think we should be very slow to disfellowship anyone. I think that love, compassion and encouragement will be more persuasive than kicking someone out. If a gay man won't respond to that he will most likely leave on his own.

Todd
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_MLH
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Post by _MLH » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:32 pm

Gay Christian? I don't think so! :evil:
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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:53 pm

Gay Christian? I don't think so!
Why not? I'm a gay Christian! I'm happy and gay!

I refuse to recognize the redefinition of this word --- the practice of using the word as if it were a synonym for "homosexual". When one uses the word in its classic sense, people laugh and make fun, having in mind a homo connotation. I don't care. I will continue to use the word "gay" in the proper manner, and refuse to use it as an adjective for "homosexual."
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_Homer
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Post by _Homer » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:55 am

One of the problems in applying church discipline equally to all sin is that, while all may be sin in God's eyes, some sins are blatant while others are subtle, unrecognized as sin by the guilty party, and unnoticed by others. In Galatians 5: 19-21 we read:


19. Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20. idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21. envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


And Romans 1:29

29. being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,


A person may have hatred for someone in his heart, may be envious, may be selfishly ambitious in a subtle way at work, may be deceitful in a business, may inadvertently gossip, etc., all of which may not come to the attention of the church.

A fine Christian man I know recently wrote this in a newspaper article: "I can't stomach the idea of ______ back in the White House, with his infidelities, which I understand, continue to this day." Is this not gossip? Yet I am sure the thought of the statement being gossip never crossed his mind.

On the other hand, if a man walks into church holding hands with another man's wife, or two men walk in holding hands, or a person is arrested for drunk driving, it gets noticed. We aren't God, and we, as the church, often can not discern the practise of sin as well as desireable in order to treat all equally regarding Church discipline. We can only do the best we know how, and we are not all equally qualified to do even that, as Paul clearly recognized:


Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.
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_Mort_Coyle
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:29 am

I'm sorry, I just realized that I made a typo. When I brought this up in TK's discussion about controversial topics, I meant to say gray Christians, not gay Christians. Y'know, gray like Paidion and Homer.

Just kidding! :lol:

Seriously though, for myself, I'm still trying to sort out the line between being compassionate/merciful/loving vs. confronting sin on this issue. Homosexuality is a very complex issue. Do we deal with homosexual orientation the same as behavior? Was the type of homosexual behavior condemned in biblical times the same as in modern times? (Some argue that the Bible is primarily speaking out against pederasty--the use of boys by older men--which was a common practice, particulary in the Greco-Roman world. If this is true, then the underlying issue may have more to do with inappropriate use of power than with sexuality).

How many of you personally know gay men or women? I've had several gays friends over the years and all of them were, just below the surface, very damaged and unhappy people. It is well established that the suicide rate among gays, particularly teens, is dramatically higher than among non-gays. These people desperately need Jesus. But can they come "just as they are"?
Just as I am, without one plea,
But that Thy blood was shed for me,
And that Thou bidst me come to Thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, and waiting not
To rid my soul of one dark blot,
To Thee whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

Just as I am, though tossed about
With many a conflict, many a doubt,
Fightings and fears within, without,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.
I'm not asserting a position here, pro or con. I'm just throwing out some grist for the mill. Where I currently stand on the issue is that if I'm going to err (which is likely), I'd rather err on the side of mercy than on the side of correctness.

I became a Christian yet still engaged in some serious sin. My letting go of these things was a gradual process, facilitated by the Holy Spirit. At one time I would have told you I was a Christian (and I was), yet I was also doing drugs and engaging in premarital sex. So I was both a Christian and a sinner. Still am (although the sins are more subtle now). Thank God that nobody ran me off or tried to force repentance upon me before I was ready. God was patient.
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_MLH
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Post by _MLH » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:29 am

LOL, Paidion! I agree with you. AMEN
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_Mort_Coyle
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:14 pm

I'm going to visit my son tomorrow at his university and so was looking for a church in the vicinity that my wife and I could visit. This one looked interesting: http://www.livingwaterwa.com/index.htm

In going through their website I noticed this in the Links section:
http://www.affirmingchristiannetwork.org

Which led me to a whole bunch of other church sites, such as:
http://www.tgpainfo.com
http://www.believerscovenant.org
http://www.rainbowcommunitychurch.ca

Take a look and see if you notice anything ...different.

Yes, these are "Gay Affirming" churches. It seems there are whole networks of non-denominational "gay friendly" churches out there.

There are also many websites devoted to Gay Christians. Here are two examples:
http://www.gaychristian.net
http://www.christiangays.com

My intent in posting all of this is just to point out that there are homosexuals who consider themselves devout Christians. They read the same Bible, sing the same worship songs, do church the same way, etc.

BTW, I haven't decided yet if I'm going to visit that church. Think I should?
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_STEVE7150
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:35 pm

These people desperately need Jesus. But can they come "just as they are"?


How else could they come to Jesus except as they are? That's the whole point of the faith that through Him we can be delivered from sin. They won't or can't change on their own therefore Christians must embrace a homosexual who desires Jesus and pray that ultimately they will be delivered.
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