Universalism - any good books?

[Guest]

They might as well be able to join if your views are correct, because everyone's ultimately part of the Church in your belief.


Everyone "is ultimately..."? Do you mean "shall be ultimately"?

Okay, so I guess I need to render that “they will ultimately be part of the church”, that is, they have yet to become part of it. So that was a dumb comment on my part.

And while we're at it, how about the millions who have never heard of Christ and have had no opportunity to become disiples?

Romans chapter 1 tells us everyone has an equal chance to receive Christ. Every man knows God exists, because God made those truths evident to them v.19. But man chooses to reject that truth and suppress it in his unrighteousness v.18. Therefore they are without excuse v.20. As Paul unequivocally asserts here, no person can rightly claim ignorance of God, and therefore no person can rightly claim that God’s wrath against him is unjust. If one correctly responds to the evidence God has given through creation, they will find Him. God will provide something for that searching heart. What’s the requirement to find Jesus Christ?

“You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.” Jer. 29:13

Those who are entangled in false religion don’t want to know the true God v.21+, and therefore don’t search for Him with all their heart, hence, they don't know Jesus Christ.

Jesus said, "Narrow is the road that leads to life and few there be that find it." I have always considered those few, "the little flock", as the church of Christ. That is not to say that the little flock are the only ones to be with Christ eternally.

Well if what you say is correct, that all will be saved in the end, the statement Jesus made about the narrow path is false. If Jesus said few find the path, how can it be that everyone will find the path which leads to life?

[Guest]

Romans chapter 1 tells us everyone has an equal chance to receive Christ. Every man knows God exists, because God made those truths evident to them v.19.

Really, everyone has an equal chance in this life? So a child brought up in a devout christian family has the same chance as if he were brought up by militant atheists or muslims,hindus or buddists or orthodox jews?
Paul has said nothing new for in Psalm 19 it says the glory of God is revealed in the heavens above and anyone can see this. But this is not saving faith and the bible does say that Christ will be revealed to every man IN DUE TIME.
My understanding is that this due time is in the LOF and your's is that it is in this life.
I see not a shred of evidence to support your view.

[Guest]

I officially resign - I will no longer speak about universalism. You guys are twisting verses to an unbelievable measure to support your feelings. I liked what Homer said -

When a belief regarding the fate of the lost is built upon the material available to the universalist, the building has a foundation of sand, for there is necessarily a considerable amount of speculation, wishful thinking, and dubious exposition of scripture, in the system. (And yes, I wish it to be true, but can not believe it is.)

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So a child brought up in a devout christian family has the same chance as if he were brought up by militant atheists or muslims,hindus or buddists or orthodox jews?

Yep, because a person has a free will. If they want to know the true God, God promises to facilitate that heart as I stated in my previous post. It doesn't matter what obstacles are present, if the person is willing, God will bring it to pass. God is sovereign, amen.

I'm done.

[Guest]

Benzoic:

Well if what you say is correct, that all will be saved in the end, the statement Jesus made about the narrow path is false. If Jesus said few find the path, how can it be that everyone will find the path which leads to life?

I guess Benzoic is not going to reply anymore to this thread. Notwithstanding, I wish to explain my position to anyone else who has read the objection above.

My understanding is that the few (the church of Christ) who find the path to life refers to the few in this present life who find it. This is confirmed by our experience. When we consider the world population (or even those in a "Christian" country such as the U.S.A.), there are only a few who become Christ's disciples. So Christ's statement about the narrow path in undoubtedly true.

I don't think Jesus was addressing the remediation of Gehenna or the lack thereof.

[Guest]

I officially resign - I will no longer speak about universalism. You guys are twisting verses to an unbelievable measure to support your feelings. I liked what Homer said -


OK and speaking of twisting, which Jesus is the real one? The "love your enemies" one, or the eternally torment your enemies one?
And he said missing the narrow path leads to eternal damnation in hell or destruction?
Many, many people suffered destruction in the bible but all are resurrected and face judgement. So destruction is not the final judgement necessarily and we will see that God is just and also merciful.

[Guest]

Seth wrote

I just finished reading If Grace is True: Why God Will Save Every Person by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland. I'll save everyone else a read...it's not worth it. Instead of presenting (what I hoped would be) a scriptural case for the doctrine of Christian (?) Universalism, it instead opted to go the "it just *feels* right" direction.

Hi Seth, I noticed you read Gulley's book. I ordered it from the public library and wanted to see if anyone on the forum had read it before I ventured into it. I'm going to take your advice and not bother reading it (at this point anyway). While flipping through the pages I noticed that he said (regarding the bible), "I am willing and able to say of many verses, 'I don't believe that to be true'" Not exactly what I'm looking for regarding this subject matter.

My main reason for writing is this. I noticed Gulley made the following statement

Thomas Talbott, in his latest book The Inescapable Love of God, argues that the New Testament is universalist. Though I find many of his interpretations of Scripture enlightening, I remain unconvinced....page 199

Rather than search through Gulley's book, I was wondering if you remember what he found unconvincing in Talbott's argument....that is, if he addressed this issue at all. Talbott certainly seems to have a higher view of scripture than Gulley, but I still find it intriguing that a universalist isn't convinced by Talbott's argument. I'm curious to find out what he found lacking in Talbott's book....i.e. why he doesn't think the NT is universalist.

[Guest]

Hi Steve,

I've read "If Grace is True", and I think it is very flawed but worth a read. It is certainly nowhere close to the level of Talbott.

The primary issue I have with Gulley & Mulholland, as has been pointed out, is that they have a fairly low view of scriptural authority. When confronted with a scripture that appears to teach eternal torment, their approach is to simply say they believe the writer (be it Paul or whoever) was mistaken. On page 200, after their statement about Talbott, Gulley & Mulholland go on to say:

Since I don't believe the Bible inerrant, I have no need either to harmonize every voice or to explain away every inconsistency. I am willing and able to say of many verses, "I don't believe that to be true." But I'm also excited the Bible isn't unanimous about the destiny of humanity. There are minority voices. Though some of them represent a Christocentric view, they all call into question the damnation of God's children.

They go on to give the following introduction to a list of scriptures which support the doctrine of universal salvation:

I encourage those of you convinced the Bible is the inerrant word of God to examine and study these verses. You may remain unconvinced, but you can't ignore what you claim is without error. For those less committed to biblical authority, I hope these verses allow you to reclaim a book full of truth.

From my perspective, it seems that Gulley & Mulholland don't realize that it is not necessary to simply discard scriptures as erroneous which appear to teach eternal torment. They are not exegetes and don't dig into the "ET" texts to see if there is another explanation. This seems to be why they are "unconvinced" by Talbott's interpretations: they have already come up with a simpler solution, which is to dismiss the verses in question.

This is by no means a scholarly book. It is a very light and quick read. I certainly wouldn't consider this book to provide solid Biblical arguments for universal salvation. However what I did find worthwhile about the book is the charming way that the authors set forth some of the ramifications of universal salvation. For example, I thought this was excellent:

"Holiness is God's ability to confront evil without being defiled. God's holiness does not require Him to keep evil at arm's length. God's holiness enables Him to take the wicked in His arms and transform them. God is never in danger of being defiled. No evil can alter His love, for His gracious character is beyond corruption. This is what it means to say God is holy - God's love is incorruptible.

Holiness and love are not competing committments. God is love. His love endures forever. This enduring love is what makes God holy. No manner of evil done to us or by us can seperate us from this love. God transforms His morally imperfect children through the power of His perfect love. It is our experience of this love that inspires us to such perfection.

Jesus said, 'Be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect' (Matt. 5:48). If this verse was a command for moral perfection, our cause is hopeless. Fortunately, this admonistion follows a command to 'Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you' (Matt. 5:44). Perfection is demonstrated not by moral purity, but by extravagant love. We are like God not when we are pure, but when we are loving and gracious."

So, although I don't agree with the route Gulley & Mulholland take to get to universal salvation, I do appreciate some of their insights once they get there.

[Guest]

No manner of evil done to us or by us can seperate us from this love.

Psalm 34:11-16 (New King James Version)

11. Come, you children, listen to me;
I will teach you the fear of the LORD.
12. Who is the man who desires life,
And loves many days, that he may see good?
13. Keep your tongue from evil,
And your lips from speaking deceit.
14. Depart from evil and do good;
Seek peace and pursue it.

15. The eyes of the LORD are on the righteous,
And His ears are open to their cry.
16. The face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
To cut off the remembrance of them from the earth.

1 Peter 3:10-12 (New King James Version)

10. For
“ He who would love life
And see good days,
Let him refrain his tongue from evil,
And his lips from speaking deceit.
11. Let him turn away from evil and do good;
Let him seek peace and pursue it.
12. For the eyes of the LORD are on the righteous,
And His ears are open to their prayers;
But the face of the LORD is against those who do evil.”


Hmmm. Sounds like a separation to me. Oh well, if aionios never means eternal to some folks, perhaps separate has an esoteric meaning also.

[Guest]

Ooh, proof-text volleyball! I love this game!

Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,"
even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.

Psalm 139:7-12


For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:38-39

Your serve!

[Guest]

Hi Mort!,

Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?

God is omnipresent. Who can doubt that? What has that to do with separation from God?

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (New International Version)
9. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power


So are you saying that no amount of wickedness can separate a person from the love of God even for a little while (Paidion's aionios time out, whatever that is). Are you sure of that?


For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:38-39

Thanks Mort! This is a teachable moment demonstating how Universalists make use of the scriptures! Those interested might wish to read the previous thirty-seven verses of Romans 8 and see if we can determine who the "us" is in reference to? Universal application or not?

Ball is in your court.

God bless, your friendly contrarian.