Sabbath Observance: 3 Views

[Guest]

Jesus specifically commanded that we keep even the least of the commandments of God as given throough Moses and the Prophets, and that we teach others to likewise keep them.



dmatic, I'm afraid i have to disagree although i truly respect your zeal to follow what you believe to be right. Jesus either transformed or changed the law for his followers as can be seen by continuing to read past 5.20 and contemplating the next "But i say unto you" statments. "Love your enemy" is not the Law of Moses it is Jesus's own law known as the "Law of the Spirit" which i believe is the law he was referring to.

[Guest]

Thanks Steve, for your 'respect', but I truly don't deserve it! I'm simply trying to seek God's Kingdom and His righteousness first, just as Jesus advised. Even if I did all that I was commanded to do, I would still call myself an unworthy servant!

You wrote:

Jesus either transformed or changed the law for his followers as can be seen by continuing to read past 5.20 and contemplating the next "But i say unto you" statments. "Love your enemy" is not the Law of Moses it is Jesus's own law known as the "Law of the Spirit" which i believe is the law he was referring to.

I don't think that "Hate your enemies" was Moses' Law either. The problem was that the Pharisees, and those so-called 'teachers of the law" were not teaching God's Laws but man's! They were neglaecting to teach God's and making them of none effect, just as many do today!

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Paidion thought I was sidestepping his questions, but I did write in my admittedly long post:

Anyway, I think my "church" should be teaching obedience to God's commandments. If people willfully desire to do their own will rather than submit to His, then, yes, I think, after being warned, they should be "cut off" until such time as they be led by God to repent. Otherwise, their attitude of witchcraft may spread to other "innocents", and then it would be better for them to have a mill stone hung around their necks and be cast into the sea, rather than to offend one of His little ones.

Most, are not being taught to regard highly God's word and His Law, however, so much patience and corrective teaching is being called for, but many "will" not to endure sound doctrine, the doctrine that conforms to godliness....but rather want their ears "tickled"!

Problem with today, here in America, is that we are not under a theocracy yet, so I hesitate to counsel anything other than "Fret not yourself because of evildoers". If we start stoning to death all of the wicked, ...our arms would get tired. I am all for warning them, however, and for teaching those who claim to love God to obey His commandments!

Hope this answers some of your objections friend. I will look forward to reading a response from you.

I would add that God is perfectly able to kill the body and soul of those who refuse His insturctions. Jesus said, in fact, that He would say to His enemies that refused His rulership over them: "Bring them here and slay them in my presence"!

I am still interested Paidion if you agree or disagree with God's instructions that you quoted to His people?

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Steve, I'll try to type more now, but again, am limited by time!

First, I probably should explain that not all of the commandments of God are able to be obeyed by each individual person, because they are commands to certain others. The complicated issue of sacrifices can be discussed a bit later, since I haven't even begun to get into your article. Sorry. But, let me say that the way I understand sacrifices is that they were to be brought to a door of the tent or tabernacle of meeting, where God had chosen to place His name. Even if the 'sacrifice' had been done elsewhere they were required to bring some of the blood to the altar for the priests to sprinkle it there and pour the remainder around the altar or on the ground. You are correct that God did indeed cause it so that there is no more "Levitical" Priesthood, nor a temple to even offer "sacrifices". Since the book of Hebrews was written, I believe, between 64 and 68 A.D., the temple still remianed. This is why the writer said that it was "ready to vanish away"....the temple priesthood....

Anyway, I can address this issue more, later. Lord willing, but let's get back to the sabbath command first. It is an interesting study isn't it? A Sabbath command was given before the "Old Covenant" was even ratified at Sinai, and before God had given Moses the Tables that He had cut out and inscribed with His own Hand.

He instructed Moses regarding the manna, and when they could gather and when they couldn't (sabbath) and when they could keep overnight, without breeding worms, the daily gathering....to see if the people would obey Him! Of course, they didn't. They tried to make up their own rules and pick any day they wanted to gather more than their daily supply, and then tried to keep it overnight. The only day it would keep without breeding the worms was the sixth night....showing that it was only on the Sabbath, God's Sabbath, that they would not be given any on that day...even though many came out to gather it even on the sabbath. I think that God knew they weren't going to obey His commands, but He wanted to show Moses a glimpse of what kind of people he was being asked to lead!

Anyway...the first sentence under your first paragraph of the "Problems with the First position" I agree with!

The first scripture you parenthesized was 2 Cor. 3:7. May I first say that I agree with Paul, that even today when Moses is read a veil lies over the hearts of those who do not, or will not, see the glory. When we actually do turn to the Lord, the veil is taken away! You quoted the "minstry of death written and engraved on stones". May I ask you if you know what this means? What is this ministry of death and who was ministering it?

I believe there are at least, a couple of meanings or multiple levels of meaning that I'm quite certain that I have not fully grasped yet, but here are a couple of thoughts. we may agree that our fleshly deeds need to be mortified, or die...or be killed. As the natural comes before the spiritual, we are in the process of becoming spiritual beings. During the process, the carnal mind needs to be "put to death" or at least submit to the spiritual mind. But, scripture says that the carnal mind cannot do so. One of the Law's functions is to show us our carnality so as to show us to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.

Another, more obvious function of the ministry of death is the Levitical Priesthood, as previously mentioned. The minstry of the death of animals pointing to Y'Shua, the perfect Lamb of God...and the two ministries of Christ..one, a death work, and the other, a living work. This part of the Law was "added because of transgressions to the Law's instructions, until the Perfect One came which brings me to your mention of Hebrews 8:13 "In the saying, "New", He has made the first old (the Levitical Priesthood, the law of carnal Physiology) and the thing having been made old and growing aged is near disappearing" Truly, within a few years it was gone! God, himself, ended the sytem He had placed temporarily, until the Perfect had come. Now we have such an High Priest in Heaven! A High Priest after the order of Melchizedek! Who was before Abraham even and obviously before Levi who was till in Abraham's loins when Abraham "tithed" to him! (I believe this was to Seth, BTW) The Eldest son of Noah...who was alive before and after the flood, and outlived Abraham by, if I remember correctly, about thirty years!

Anyway, it seems clear to me, that the laws of the first covenant were not done away with, because there was nothing wrong with them! It was the people who broke the commandments, and the covenant, that God was not pleased with. His commandments were perfect, holy, just and right! One of the differences between the "Old" and "New" covenants is the location where these laws are placed. In the first, they were written without, on the outside of the people on tables of stone, whereas now they are bieing written within on the hearts and minds of those who are entering covenant with God. They are wonderful commandments! They are not grievous or burdensome, but reveal the mind of our Father, Who desires that we keep them for our own good, so as to learn His heart and His character....so as to become like Him...created in His image. By meditating on them daily, we begin to see His wisdom and love and righteousness! He changes not. He is Love...and when we keep His commandments He promises to make His abode within us! And to be our God and we His people! This is eternal life, knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent (Jn 17:3).

Your next paragraph contains some incorrect conlcusions, apparently based on misunderstanding Paul's writings at Col 2:16-17: Rom. 14:5: and Gal. 4:10-11. I'll try to address them next time....Thank you for your patience.

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Steve, One more thing from the last paragraph about Hebrews 8:13...You'll note that the word "covenant" does not appear in the text. The chapter is speaking of the Old Levitical Priesthood, where, as verse four indicates that Jesus would not be a priest according to the law of Levitical Priests, but He has replaced that "Temporary" system which was governed by "blood lines" etc. Y'Shua has become our high Priest in the heavens...and the old as of the writing of Hebrews in 64-68A.D. was being ready to disappear as verse 13 indicates!

Further then, your next paragraph includes:

The ritual practices of the law (including the observance of sacred days) have their fulfillment in Christ, and are not commanded to be continued in the New Testament. Thus circumcision, animal sacrifices, dietary restrictions and holy days no longer apply as obligations of God's people (see Col.2:16-17/ Gal.4:10-11/ Rom.14:5).

I believe that the Apostles taught adherence to the Feasts and Sabbaths of God...i.e. even Paul while encouraging the keeping of the Feast of Unleavened Bread said some place: "Let us therefore keep the feast in sincerity and truth and not with the leaven of malice etc."

Looking at Col. 2:16-17, oft quoted by "Pauline anti-nomians", it should first be noted that this follows immediately verses 14,15/ This says that that the decrees that were against us for our transgressions of the Law were nailed to the tree, with Christ, when He took our punishments upon Himself and died in our stead! The commandments were not nailed to the tree. The commandments are not what is against us! Unless, of course, you think a prohibition against "bacon" or adultery or stealing "against us.

Col 2:16-17 can be read, in my humbgle opinion thusly: Let no man but the body of Christ judge (teach) you therefore, in meat or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath, which are a shadow of things yet to come (and are therefore, important!). If this is what Paul said, it is more easily seen to agree with Y'Shua's teaching regarding these things. If he was saying what many of you think he was saying, then I am having trouble discerning how this agrees with Y'Shua's commands and instructions.

Further reading to the end of the chapter seems to confirm my understanding of the passage where verses 20-23 conclude: "Wherefore, if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances after the commandments of men? "
We still should be subject to God's commandments) This reminds me of Y'shua's condemantion of the teaching
of the Pharisees, as they were teaching the commandments of men rather than the commandments of God, actually making them of none effect! Certainly, they, like many today, teach adherence to the traditions of men! (such as Christmas, Lent, "Beaster" The Roman calendar, including "sun-day" "sabbath keeping".) This also agrees with vs 16 and 17 which show that we should not let the world teach us any longer their own traditions as doctrine, but let the body of Christ teach us regarding these important things....God's commandments! The true body of Christ holds to the head, and teaches what He taught us to teach, which, according to Mt 23:2,3 and Mt 5:17-19 is adherence ot what Moses taught, and not to what men were teaching.

I don't know if this is making any sense to you, because I am writing this as I type, without proofing...but I hope so. I hope I am not making myself an enemy of yours, because I hope I am speaking the truth. I realize that there are many that disagree with me on this, and they think they understand what Paul is writing, but to me, it seems that they sometimes could be called paulines, rather than Christians because when there seems to be a contradiction to what Jesus taught, from that which they think Paul was teaching, they go with theri understanding of what they think Paul was talking about.

Many, in His day, as today, according to Peter, didn't understand what He was saying because they were unlearned and unstable and twisted his writings as they did the other scriptures to their own destruction (2 Peter 3:15-17) Now, we know tha the "Roman catholic Church" twisted many of them, even changing the Law of God! as if they had authority to do so, as they proclaim that all those so-called protestants are submitting to them as their mother by agreeing that they have the authority to change God's law! I wonder how they also influenced the translations throughout the years. My suspicion is that the Dead Sea Scrolls prove them to be deceivers, as does history.

Anyway, I'll try to get to Galatians 4: tomorrow or the next day, Lord willing, but Romans 14:5 in my opinion is easy, because it is not even speaking of the sabbath day, nor is it mentioned. I think Paul was talking about celebrating "birthdays". The Bible mentions only a few of them being celebrated so there may have been some controversy regarding the keeping of them....Bad things happened on these days too! Job's sacrifices for his children were for their celebrations on their "birthdays" I think. John's head was chopped off on Herod's birthday...so believers may have assumed that birthdays should not be celebrated! Paul is saying that it doesn't matter, because God didn't rule them our but didn't command them either...so it is left to each individual's conscience.

BTW, I do not advocate "Judaism", as your last post insinuated. I advocate Christianity...by a teaching and keeping of God's commandments, and I believe this to be Y'Shua's true instruction to us.

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Still commenting on Steve's second paragraph under the heading "Problems with First Position" I'd like to ask you, Steve, why you refer to dietary instructions as "ritual practices"? Whereas I agree spiritually with your statement that "ritual practices have their fulfillment in Christ" I disagree that they are not to be kept and taught. I believe that Y'shua made perfectly clear that they should be taught and kept at matt. 5:17-19. I am perplexed how anyone could disagree that He clearly made that command a part of His instruction for His Disciples to teach all nations to do and observe what He taught. These commandments help us to understand what it really means to love God with all our hearts and our neighbors as ourselves. Both of these two greatest commandments are not contained in the "Ten" on stone, but are written within the "Law of Moses".

You used Col. 2:16-17, Romans 14:5, and Gal; 4:10-11 to try to support your assertion that the "rituakl practices of the law (including the observance of sacred days)...are not commanded to be continued in the N.T."and should not be taught to Gentiles. I've already commented on the first two so now would like to try and address Gal. 4:10-11.

Presumably, the Galatians, before they knew God were serving them which by nature are no gods (v.8) as they were involved in idoatry and heathen customs and traditions. Paul asks them that since they now know God, or rather, are known by Him, why they are going BACK AGAIN to those practices they were doing before they came to know Him? Then Paul reminds them that they are turning BACK to those things previously done to idols and heatne customs saying "Ye observe days, and months, and times and years,"

I don't know what particular form of religious heatenism they were involved in before they came to know God, but it may have been similar to what days, months, times and years that today's "christians" keep, namely, chritsmas, beaster, lent, haloween, all saints days, valentine's may day, New Year's eve and day, when they are actually from the pagan calendar of Rome! The New Year starts when God says it starts, not when pagans say it starts in the middle of a dead winter! Anyway, there is not a hint that Paul is speaking of God's holy days and times. If Paul was discouraging them from keeping God's, then there may be a case that he was a false apostle. (deut. 13) But, I have not so concluded, though his writings are difficult to understand, without contradiction.

For example, Paul says that we do not annul the law through faith, but rather, establish the Law! (Romans 3:31) How is not teaching God's Law a part of "establishing it?"

Verse 21 of chapter four does make it seem like he had been speaking about "the Law", but I cannot say that I understand him. You may say that is because I am not spiritual, and that may be, but Paul "SEEMS" to contradict, both himself, and more importantly, Jesus' teaching on this matter.

I am interested in discussing this with anyone who is reading this, and thinks they have some answers for me regarding the apparent contractions of Paul's teaching with those of the other apostles and Jesus.

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

there goes that crazy smiley face again! Sorry....it's supposed to be verse 8....

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

dmatic, the reason the smiley face appears is because the combination of an 8 and a ) produces the smiley face. Next time you need to close a parenthetical statement skip a space and then place it.

8) 8 )

[Guest]

there goes that crazy smiley face again! Sorry....it's supposed to be verse 8...

Another way to do it is to use brackets [ ] around your reference instead of parentheses ( )

[Guest]

After having come to Christ, the Galatian Christians went back to observing the law of Moses. Some teacher had come among them and led them into this practice.

It is obvious that Paul wrote to his letter to the Galatians mainly to correct them concerning this. In this letter, Paul indicates how fervent he himself was in the things of the Mosaic law. But now, he states that he died to the law in order to live to God.

But if I build up again those things which I tore down, then I prove myself a transgressor. For I through the law died to the law, that I might live to God. Galatians 2:18,19

The first 12 verses of chapter 5 in particular stress the importance of rejecting the practices of the Mosaic law, and coming into the freedom of Christ whereby we become truly and actually righteous by the spirit of God through faith.

1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

One of the practices of going back to the Mosaic law is to receive circumcision. He says that Christ will be of no advantage to them if they are circumcised. Shocking!

2 Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law.

Even more shocking! If they want to be justified (made righteous) by the law they have fallen away from grace. That is, the enabling grace of Christ, made possible by His death no longer avails for them.

4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

Rather, it is through the spirit of Christ, by faith, that we can expect righteousness in our lives.

5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.

Then Paul states that the Galatians were doing well in the things of Christ, and asks who has hindered them by teaching them that they must obey the Mosaic law with its practices.

7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

He says that this persuasion ---- to observe the Mosaic law --- did not have its origin in God.

8 This persuasion is not from him who calls you.

If part of the body of Christ goes back to law observance it may spread to all.

9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

But Paul is assured that they will see what he is saying and accept it, and that the one leading them astray will be corrected.

10 I have confidence in the Lord that you will take no other view than mine; and he who is troubling you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.

Paul is being persecuted for his stand regarding freedom from the Mosaic law in Christ. But he affirms that he does preach circumcision ( not physical circumcision as in the Mosaic law, but circumcision of the heart) [Deuteronomy 10:16, Jeremiah 4:4]

11 But if I, brethren, still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? In that case the stumbling block of the cross has been removed.

Then Paul indicates how strongly he feels against those who persuaded the Galatians to keep the law.

12 I wish those who unsettle you would mutilate themselves!

The Greek word translated "circumcise" literally means "to cut around". The word here translated as "mutilate" literally means "to cut off". I think you can guess what Paul wishes they would do!

I get the impression that Paul is very, very angry with those who led the Galatians back to law observance.