The Free Will of Man According to 'the Church Fathers'

[_Paidion]

You may agree with me that if we define "free" as unrestricted, or uncaused, that we do not posess such a thing as "free" will.

I do believe that "unrestricted" is part of the meaning of "free", but not "uncaused".

To have "free will" means to have the ability to choose without having your choices forced in any way. Your choices may be influenced (in a degree ranging from "weak" to "strong"). Your actual actions may be forced, but not your will. It can be influenced by others who may lead you to consider the ramifications of your decisions or may be influenced by those who threaten your personal safety, but your will cannot be forced.

Some of our choices are influenced (but not "caused") by our previous sensory experiences. Thus some people may choose dilled pickles over olives every time. Nevertheless, they "could have chosen" olives in spite of those more delightful experiences with dilled pickles.

However, we can envision cases in which there are no such influences.
A person may hold two objects behind his back, one in each hand, and tell you you can choose one of his hands and keep whatever object is in that hand. You may have no preference of "left" over "right" or vice versa. So you make a choice. We may call this a "random choice" and that may be a correct appelation. But it is not an "uncaused choice". The cause of that choice is we ourselves and nothing external to us. In this case, there may not even be any external influence on our choice.

[Guest]

I think that we need to define what we mean by "free" as it is undeniable that men have wills, and the ability to choose. This is no proof of "free" will however, because even computers have the ability to choose. But, this is of course, determined by programs. thus, their choices are caused.



Hi dmatic, Welcome to the forum, i'm just curious have you ever read L. Ray Smith writings?

Good one Steve! Yes, actually, I very recently ran into his stuff and am presently trying to work my way through some of it. Do you know him?
If so, what do you think? I've basically agreed with much of what I've read so far, though i did email him with some of my concerns about his view of God's Law, but have not received a response yet.

I did like his comparison with the computer and making choices. But, I have been trying to understand this dilema for some time.

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

paidion wrote:

I do believe that "unrestricted" is part of the meaning of "free", but not "uncaused".

To have "free will" means to have the ability to choose without having your choices forced in any way. Your choices may be influenced (in a degree ranging from "weak" to "strong"). Your actual actions may be forced, but not your will.

I'm pretty sure that I don't understand your first sentence friend. If you could clarify it for me, I would appreciate it.

Scriptures declare that it is God Who works in us to will and to do of His good purpose. Would you say that this influence is a cause of our actually willing to do something?

Your example of the two hands behind the back may fall into the category of "The lot is cast into the lap, but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD" (Proverbs 16:33) In other words, in my view, what we consider "chance" is determined by the LORD as to the outcome. This is how, according to my understanding the disciples "chose" a repacement for Judas!

So, you agree that our wills are not unrestricted. Therefore we are not free to will things that God would not allow. Infact, we can't, according to scripture even will ourselves into salvation unless the Lord Drags us.

I'm actually seeing that God is much more involved in our lives than maybe most of us realize. He knows the number of hairs on our head, and for me, that has changed daily for years! He knows when even a sparrow falls....and god knows how many of them are "out there".

I'm just not placing as much confidence in man's ability to will, without God working within him to will and to do of His good purpose. This is why I still think that "free" will is an illusion.

have you read the story in Judges 14 yet? Wouldn't you conclude that God caused the will of samson to desire the Philistine woman? But, if we asked Samson, he probably would say that he "freely" chose her, as he may have also been under the illusion that his will was uncaused.

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Good one Steve! Yes, actually, I very recently ran into his stuff and am presently trying to work my way through some of it. Do you know him?
If so, what do you think? I've basically agreed with much of what I've read so far, though i did email him with some of my concerns about his view of God's Law, but have not received a response yet.


dmatic, Yes i've read his papers and i think he has a good grasp on God's plan. Also i agree that we don't really have free will , it's just something we like to think we have. As Ray says we do have a will but it's unduly influenced to be free therefore i agree with him that we are accountable to God but the ultimate responsibility of mankind lays in God's hands.
You can hear his audios by accessing his forum at the bottom of his webpage or some at aionios.com.

[_Paidion]

I do believe that "unrestricted" is part of the meaning of "free", but not "uncaused".

To have "free will" means to have the ability to choose without having your choices forced in any way. Your choices may be influenced (in a degree ranging from "weak" to "strong"). Your actual actions may be forced, but not your will.

I'm pretty sure that I don't understand your first sentence friend. If you could clarify it for me, I would appreciate it.

I'm trying to figure out why you do not understand it.
Anyway, here are five of the definitions given by the American Heritage Talking Dictionary. There are others, but they do not relate to the subject at hand. Notice that "not restricted" is mentioned in #4. Thus I said that "unrestricted" is part of the meaning of "free". Instead, I probably should have said "one of the meanings of 'free'"

free (fre)adj. fre-er, fre-est.
1. Not imprisoned or enslaved; being at liberty.
2. Not controlled by obligation or the will of another: felt free to go.
3. Having political independence: "America ... is the freest and wealthiest nation in the world" (Rudolph W. Giuliani). Governed by consent and possessing or granting civil liberties: a free citizenry. Not subject to arbitrary interference by a government: a free press.
4. Not affected or restricted by a given condition or circumstance: a healthy animal, free of disease; free from need. Not subject to a given condition; exempt: income that is free of all taxes.
5. Not subject to external restraint: "Comment is free but facts are sacred" (Charles Prestwich Scott).

---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

But as far as I know, no dictionary gives "uncaused" as one of the meanings of "free."

[_Paidion]

have you read the story in Judges 14 yet? Wouldn't you conclude that God caused the will of samson to desire the Philistine woman?

Yes, I read it tonight.
No, I wouldn't conclude that at all. Look at the text:

Samson went down to Timnah, and at Timnah he saw one of the daughters of the Philistines. Then he came up, and told his father and mother, "I saw one of the daughters of the Philistines at Timnah; now get her for me as my wife."

But his father and mother said to him, "Is there not a woman among the daughters of your kinsmen, or among all our people, that you must go to take a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?"

But Samson said to his father, "Get her for me; for she pleases me well."

His father and mother did not know that it was from the LORD; for he was seeking an occasion against the Philistines. At that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel. Judges 14:1-4

The text indicates that Samson's choice of woman was from Yahweh! Does it state anywhere that Yahweh caused his choice? None of which I am aware. Yahweh did something to influence Samson so that he desired this woman above all other women. In spite of that, he could have chosen another.

Man has been created in the image of God ---- certainly not the physical image, for God is spirit. But rather in His image with respect to mental characteristics. No other creature on earth can reason as man does, and no other creature has the ability to choose as man does.

[Guest]

Paidion wrote:

No other creature on earth can reason as man does, and no other creature has the ability to choose as man does.

Because....God willed it so!

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

dmatic--

your last post suggests that you feel that since God willed that man should have a free will, then man's will isnt really free since God is the one who willed it to be free.

is that your position?

TK

[Guest]

Well, not really TK.

I agree that God has willed for us to have a will. I'm not sure that it is "free" though. Because free has to do with uncaused, or unrestricted, and we know that it is God who works in us both to will and to do of His good purpose!

I'm of a mind that believes that all of God's purposes are good, even though they may not make sense to us initially. But, it may be that He really is working all things after the counsel of His own will, and that we all have been created for His pleasure! Thus He will lose none of us! But that He will cause us all to be led into repentance and knowledge of the truth! God IS Sovereign! He rules in all the affairs of men!

Hope that helps!

peace, dmatic