So does it bother you at all that the terms are switched?Paidion wrote:Yes, Michelle and TK, I think you both have a good grasp of my understanding of "forgiveness", and I see God's forgiveness of us the same way. He grants a "pardon". It's not a matter of God no longer "harboring feelings of resentment." For God, unlike us, does not have such feelings toward people.
True Forgiveness
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Reason:
Reason:
I recently came across an audio presentation of "The Dennis Prager Show". The beginning deals with the subject of forgiveness. I am amazed at the degree to which I agree with this man.
You can listen to it by first going to the following website:
http://krla870.townhall.com/
Then under The Dennis Prager Show, select:
H3: Who Wrote the NIE?
You can listen to it by first going to the following website:
http://krla870.townhall.com/
Then under The Dennis Prager Show, select:
H3: Who Wrote the NIE?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
i'm a huge fan of dennis prager- i dont know if i have ever disagreed with one of his columns, or his stance on issues.
i wish he was a christian, but he is a huge supporter of christianity despite the fact that he is Jewish.
TK
i wish he was a christian, but he is a huge supporter of christianity despite the fact that he is Jewish.
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)
true forgiveness
Hi. I couldn’t find the relevant Dennis Prager bit, but would like to comment on some previous posts. I agree, this is an interesting & important topic.
In the molester/child example, whether there was danger of repeat offence or not, surely we would have enough sensitivity (& obligation) to not allow further trauma to a child by allowing them to endure the company of a molester, let alone being left in their care.(at least until such time that the child becomes mature, & reaches their own place of forgiveness & understanding). I would think the law of loving each other would apply equally to all parties concerned.
I realize this was a hypothetical situation & in real life we probably would act responsibly, seek some Godly counsel, and be led by the Holy Spirit regarding specific responses.
Another consideration occurred to me: however completely we personally may have forgiven someone, there may be in some scenarios, others involved whose feelings we would have a responsibility to also take into account.I am not suggesting that the mother should place her child back into the care of someone who has molested her child if there is any doubt whatever that the person has truly repented and turned from such things in abhorrence. But if he has truly repented, he will no longer do such things, and there will be no danger. (Paidion)
I can't get past my maternal instincts to be protective (and my own daughter is now 26!) I'm afraid that I would risk not being forgiving enough.
….but I'm more interested in knowing what Jesus' teachings mean to a follower of Christ, like, say, me. (Michelle)
In the molester/child example, whether there was danger of repeat offence or not, surely we would have enough sensitivity (& obligation) to not allow further trauma to a child by allowing them to endure the company of a molester, let alone being left in their care.(at least until such time that the child becomes mature, & reaches their own place of forgiveness & understanding). I would think the law of loving each other would apply equally to all parties concerned.
I realize this was a hypothetical situation & in real life we probably would act responsibly, seek some Godly counsel, and be led by the Holy Spirit regarding specific responses.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Re: True Forgiveness
I'm just bumping this old thread so that it will appear in my "View your posts" line up. This is my all-time favorite discussion on this site and I search for it often for some of the wisdom that's in here, and finding it torturous.
Okay, move along now. Nothing to see here.
Okay, move along now. Nothing to see here.
Re: True Forgiveness
Hi Michelle,
It is helpful to me, as I hope it will be for her.
Thank you for the *bump*, Michelle!
I recall seeing this thread back in 07.
But can't remember if I posted on it.
I'll re-read it & may be back (most likely).
I've had a general understanding of what forgiveness is, and have practiced it.
I also understand what the Amish do, from the quote.
It's quite sound biblically, imo.
I'm not sure if it was discussed, but what I may address is forgiving someone who has committed vile, "unspeakable" acts. My friend's ex-husband is in prison for something like this, and she is planning to see him, in order to forgive him, for the first time since he went to prison in 2007. Her situation is extremely difficult, yet she knows she must forgive him from her heart and really mean it.
I guess I'm already talking about this....
I've had a 'working definition' of forgiveness for several years that goes something like -
"No matter what anyone has said or done against you, you forgive them and go on with your life." This seems in agreement with the Bible in terms of what forgiving someone "does for you" - (they no longer have a "stronghold" (so to speak) on your life).
But when it comes to Pardon, this is something different. This is the offender's responsibility (genuine repentance). So often we've been told that to forgive is to totally accept the other person as they are, and that what they did doesn't (or shouldn't) matter at all. This was the "popular definition" that I was taught, and it never made sense. It's crazy, if you think about it! To me, anyway.
I'll re-read the thread.
My friend doesn't post here (she isn't a member).
I'd like to ask some things about her situation, but feel I may be violating her privacy.
Perhaps I'll ask her about this.
Thanks again, Michelle.
I hope you are doing well!

I just forwarded this quote to a friend.On Wed Nov 14, 2007, you wrote: TK, I didn't want to butt-in if you were going to post a quote, but you didn't come back for a day and a half, so here's one quote to get started:
"Amish forgiveness, like forgiveness in the outside world, can be offered regardless of whether an offender confesses, apologizes, or expresses remorse. Extended by the victim to the offender, it is an unconditional gift. Pardon, on the other hand, at least in the Christian tradition, requires repentance. The Amish believe that the church is responsible to God to hold member accountable to their baptismal vows. When a member transgresses the Ordnung, the church's regulations, he or she is given several chances to repent. Upon making a confession and accepting discipline, a member receives pardon from the church and is restored to full fellowship. If the person does not confess, the Amish, drawing on particular New Testament texts, practice shunning, with the goal of restoring an offender to full fellowship. Although shunning may seem inconsistent with forgiveness, it logically follows from the Amish view of spiritual care."
(page 142)
It is helpful to me, as I hope it will be for her.
Thank you for the *bump*, Michelle!
I recall seeing this thread back in 07.
But can't remember if I posted on it.
I'll re-read it & may be back (most likely).
I've had a general understanding of what forgiveness is, and have practiced it.
I also understand what the Amish do, from the quote.
It's quite sound biblically, imo.
I'm not sure if it was discussed, but what I may address is forgiving someone who has committed vile, "unspeakable" acts. My friend's ex-husband is in prison for something like this, and she is planning to see him, in order to forgive him, for the first time since he went to prison in 2007. Her situation is extremely difficult, yet she knows she must forgive him from her heart and really mean it.
I guess I'm already talking about this....
I've had a 'working definition' of forgiveness for several years that goes something like -
"No matter what anyone has said or done against you, you forgive them and go on with your life." This seems in agreement with the Bible in terms of what forgiving someone "does for you" - (they no longer have a "stronghold" (so to speak) on your life).
But when it comes to Pardon, this is something different. This is the offender's responsibility (genuine repentance). So often we've been told that to forgive is to totally accept the other person as they are, and that what they did doesn't (or shouldn't) matter at all. This was the "popular definition" that I was taught, and it never made sense. It's crazy, if you think about it! To me, anyway.
I'll re-read the thread.
My friend doesn't post here (she isn't a member).
I'd like to ask some things about her situation, but feel I may be violating her privacy.
Perhaps I'll ask her about this.
Thanks again, Michelle.
I hope you are doing well!

Re: True Forgiveness
After going through just a few pages, um.....I wrote:I recall seeing this thread back in 07.
But can't remember if I posted on it.
I'll re-read it & may be back (most likely).
Yeah! I posted on this thread!
(Was kind of hard to follow though, wasn't I)?
Time to do some re-thinking, with an emphasis on simplicity, or so it seems.....


Re: True Forgiveness
This quote differentiates between "forgiveness" and "pardon". NT "forgiveness" in my understanding is tantamount to "pardon", and is a response to repentance. For example Jesus said:"Amish forgiveness, like forgiveness in the outside world, can be offered regardless of whether an offender confesses, apologizes, or expresses remorse. Extended by the victim to the offender, it is an unconditional gift. Pardon, on the other hand, at least in the Christian tradition, requires repentance. The Amish believe that the church is responsible to God to hold member accountable to their baptismal vows. When a member transgresses the Ordnung, the church's regulations, he or she is given several chances to repent. Upon making a confession and accepting discipline, a member receives pardon from the church and is restored to full fellowship. If the person does not confess, the Amish, drawing on particular New Testament texts, practice shunning, with the goal of restoring an offender to full fellowship. Although shunning may seem inconsistent with forgiveness, it logically follows from the Amish view of spiritual care."
So if NT "forgiveness" requires repentance, and has the same meaning as "pardon", then what is the current meaning which differs from "pardon"? In what sense did the Amish "forgive" the man who shot 10 young Amish girls. An article about the matter states in part,Watch yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.” Luke 17:3,4
It seems that the attitudes and actions of the Amish community reflected Christ's teaching as He gave it in "The Sermon on the Mount". But was that "forgiveness"? Perhaps in the modern sense. But (as I see it), the NT concept of "forgiveness" requires repentance by the offender, and, on the part of the offended, relations with him just as if he had never offended....the Amish community didn't cast blame, they didn't point fingers, they didn't hold a press conference with attorneys at their sides. Instead, they reached out with grace and compassion toward the killer's family.
When a certain brother in the Corinthian church began copulating with his step-mother, Paul advocated ostracizing him: "Do not even eat with such a one!" But after he had repented, Paul wrote:
For Paul, the time to forgive the man was after he had repented, and not before.If the behaviour of a certain person has caused distress, it does not mean so much that he has injured me, but that to some extent (I do not wish to exaggerate), he has injured all of you. But now I think that the punishment which most of you inflicted on such a man has been sufficient. Now is the time to offer him forgiveness and comfort, so that a man in his position is not completely overwhelmed by remorse. I ask you to assure him now that you love him. 2 Corinthians 5:8 Philips
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: True Forgiveness
Okay, I guess this answers my question (up at the top of this page, I believe) from almost three years ago. What the Amish call "pardon" is what you consider to be biblical "forgiveness" and you are (at least a little bit) put off by the differentiation in the book and articles written about this incident because the terms should be synonymous.Paidion wrote:This quote differentiates between "forgiveness" and "pardon". NT "forgiveness" in my understanding is tantamount to "pardon", and is a response to repentance. For example Jesus said:"Amish forgiveness, like forgiveness in the outside world, can be offered regardless of whether an offender confesses, apologizes, or expresses remorse. Extended by the victim to the offender, it is an unconditional gift. Pardon, on the other hand, at least in the Christian tradition, requires repentance. The Amish believe that the church is responsible to God to hold member accountable to their baptismal vows. When a member transgresses the Ordnung, the church's regulations, he or she is given several chances to repent. Upon making a confession and accepting discipline, a member receives pardon from the church and is restored to full fellowship. If the person does not confess, the Amish, drawing on particular New Testament texts, practice shunning, with the goal of restoring an offender to full fellowship. Although shunning may seem inconsistent with forgiveness, it logically follows from the Amish view of spiritual care."
Watch yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ forgive him.” Luke 17:3,4
Okay.So if NT "forgiveness" requires repentance, and has the same meaning as "pardon", then what is the current meaning which differs from "pardon"? In what sense did the Amish "forgive" the man who shot 10 young Amish girls. An article about the matter states in part,
It seems that the attitudes and actions of the Amish community reflected Christ's teaching as He gave it in "The Sermon on the Mount". But was that "forgiveness"? Perhaps in the modern sense. But (as I see it), the NT concept of "forgiveness" requires repentance by the offender, and, on the part of the offended, relations with him just as if he had never offended....the Amish community didn't cast blame, they didn't point fingers, they didn't hold a press conference with attorneys at their sides. Instead, they reached out with grace and compassion toward the killer's family.
So, what did the Amish do? Is there a name for it?
I think I asked this way back when, but as far as I can remember, these people had not relationship with this man before he committed this atrocity. If he repents, what do they go back to? Not knowing him? Or could they, perhaps, develop a better relationship with him? It sounds a little picky to say this, but your definition of 'forgiveness' is lacking something, at least for me, because of situations like this. It seems to me that repentance followed by forgiveness can lead to a better relationship. So can the unnamed response the Amish exemplified so magnificently, by the way.
Yeah.When a certain brother in the Corinthian church began copulating with his step-mother, Paul advocated ostracizing him: "Do not even eat with such a one!" But after he had repented, Paul wrote:
For Paul, the time to forgive the man was after he had repented, and not before.If the behaviour of a certain person has caused distress, it does not mean so much that he has injured me, but that to some extent (I do not wish to exaggerate), he has injured all of you. But now I think that the punishment which most of you inflicted on such a man has been sufficient. Now is the time to offer him forgiveness and comfort, so that a man in his position is not completely overwhelmed by remorse. I ask you to assure him now that you love him. 2 Corinthians 5:8 Philips
See, I think it's this marvelous system, which is powered by the Holy Spirit, worked out using His gifts, and meant to restore, build up, and strengthen the body. I also think that quibbling over the terms is less important than doing what we've been taught and enabled to do.
Re: True Forgiveness
I just looked at this thread so i hope i'm not repeating something.
A couple of things struck me, first the women caught in adultery
"Women where are your accusers? Has no one condemned you? She said, "no one Lord." And Jesus said , "Neither do i condemn you, go and sin no more." John 8.11
Jesus first forgave her and then asked her to repent.
Although not in the bible, i think Corrie Ten Boom said that forgiving is tantamount to freeing a prisoner, yourself.
She had forgiven her Nazi guard at a concentration camp.
In the NT there are instances of forgiveness mentioned by itself and other times with repentence. I think we have to be careful about only forgiving if the sinner is repentent because as Jesus said "he who is without sin, let him cast the first stone" meaning we all have sin yet we will not forgive someone's else's sin?
A couple of things struck me, first the women caught in adultery
"Women where are your accusers? Has no one condemned you? She said, "no one Lord." And Jesus said , "Neither do i condemn you, go and sin no more." John 8.11
Jesus first forgave her and then asked her to repent.
Although not in the bible, i think Corrie Ten Boom said that forgiving is tantamount to freeing a prisoner, yourself.
She had forgiven her Nazi guard at a concentration camp.
In the NT there are instances of forgiveness mentioned by itself and other times with repentence. I think we have to be careful about only forgiving if the sinner is repentent because as Jesus said "he who is without sin, let him cast the first stone" meaning we all have sin yet we will not forgive someone's else's sin?