Is There Harm in teaching Universalism?

[Guest]

I never hear about it except on this forum.



Most Christian forums censor CU. Won't even allow a discussion about it.

[Guest]

Most Christian forums censor CU. Won't even allow a discussion about it.

Good point, Steve. This brings me back to something I've said repeatedly through these discussions, which is that I'm not particularly interested in converting anyone to CU, I'd just like to see it given a fair hearing as a valid alternative.

I mentioned Carlton Pierson in a previous post. NPR did an in-depth story about what happened to him when he embraced Universal Reconciliation. It is a fascinating tale. You can listen to it online here: http://www.thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=304

(Btw, I don't endorse everything that Carlton Pierson teaches)

[Guest]

There's only one guy on here (as far as I know) who does not believe there is a literal hell-like place after you die.

Rae,

I am not certain if you were speaking about me here, but let me briefly explain my position on this.

I believe that the scriptures are plain that "God will render to everyone according to his deeds, whether good or bad" and that "every transgression and disobedience will receive it just reward." However, I believe that, at least in part, this rendering is realized during our lifetime. There may be more to God punishment/judgment which happens after we die (in the spiritual realm, maybe at His return?). But I do believe that it will all be completed before the resurrection of the unjust, which what I understand when I read 1 Cor 15 and Rom 8:18-23. This view is admittedly different than the common CU view.

My view
Judgment ->Punishment->Resurrection->Reconciliation

Common CU view
Resurrection->Judgment->Punishment->Reconciliation

Of course, I will fully admit I could be wrong, but the most important factor is how it ends up, and my view of the ending is the same as the common CU view.

Todd

[Guest]

Todd,

Yes, I was referring to you, but not in a bad way at all. Just that you believe differently than the rest of the CUs and so I didn't want to clump you in with what I am getting that the others believe. It seemed to me that the objections that Rick was raising had moreso to do with your view than it did with the others' views.

I do have a few questions about your position...

However, I believe that, at least in part, this rendering is realized during our lifetime. There may be more to God punishment/judgment which happens after we die (in the spiritual realm, maybe at His return?). But I do believe that it will all be completed before the resurrection of the unjust

How can you have judgment/punishment after death but before the resurrection? Would it be similar to the Lazarus and the rich man parable where your spirit would go to places of "holding" before the resurrection?

[Guest]

Homer, I just realized that I neglected to answer your question:

Do you think aionios was meant literally or figuratively in Matthew 25:46?

I think the phrase used here, aeonian kolasis refers to a time of punishment.

[Guest]

Todd,

Yes, I was referring to you, but not in a bad way at all. Just that you believe differently than the rest of the CUs and so I didn't want to clump you in with what I am getting that the others believe. It seemed to me that the objections that Rick was raising had moreso to do with your view than it did with the others' views.

I do have a few questions about your position...

However, I believe that, at least in part, this rendering is realized during our lifetime. There may be more to God punishment/judgment which happens after we die (in the spiritual realm, maybe at His return?). But I do believe that it will all be completed before the resurrection of the unjust

How can you have judgment/punishment after death but before the resurrection? Would it be similar to the Lazarus and the rich man parable where your spirit would go to places of "holding" before the resurrection?

Good question. Since I cannot see how that would work (unless it was something like the rich man, as you mention), I think that it is more likely that all of the punishment is actually realized as the detrimental affects of sin work their painful, decaying way through the lives of the unfaithful. I only allow for the possibility of 'more to come' after death because some scriptures seem to indicate a future judgment.

That 'future judgment' could simply be referring to the slippery slope that being overcome by sin leads, and that if one continues unrepentant there is more pain to come (in their lifetime). There are a number of scriptures which seem to indicate that death (the destruction of the flesh) is the end of the punishment.

1 Cor 5:5
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Rom 1:32
who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death [not hell], not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Todd

[Guest]

1 Cor 5:5
deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Rom 1:32
who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death [not hell], not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Hate to be picky Todd but Paul says "that his spirit MAY be saved" as in possibly saved which sounds like it also means "may not be saved" at least in this life.
And deserving of death can mean many different things.

[Guest]

Like the "lie" told to Eve, Satan is at his deceptive best when he can convince Christians into questioning, thinking, doubting, or even believing
that God is less than just in all His decisions regarding man, sin and the final disposition of the wicked.(Traveler)

Personally, it is precisely because I DO NOT believe God to be less than just that I was questioning the validity of the traditional teaching of eternal torment. It is our interpretation of scripture , not God that is being questioned.

For myself, I have become convinced that eternal torment is not taught in the bible.
At this time, although I would like to believe in universal reconciliation rather than annihilation, I have some reservations.
If after more study I still can't categorically believe in one view over the other, at least I will be at peace regarding God's justice & need not be hesitant in discussing this subject with unbelievers, especially if raised by them.

[Guest]

For myself, I have become convinced that eternal torment is not taught in the bible.
At this time, although I would like to believe in universal reconciliation rather than annihilation, I have some reservations


Glad to hear it and consider that perhaps there may be a ultimate resolution somewhere between CU and annhilation.

[Guest]

consider that perhaps there may be a ultimate resolution somewhere between CU and annhilation.

wouldn't that be wonderful!