"Aionios" NEVER means "eternal"

[Guest]

Homer,

Excellent rebuttal!
"Quite timely," so to speak....

Rick

[Guest]

Hello Homer,

Good posts! Since the Universalists argue that 'aion' and its derivatives imply a period of time that can come to an end, then we should be able to apply their argument consistantly that all of the following will come to an end as well:

Aion is used to speak of God's Glory, Throne, of the Saints, of Heaven, of "Hell", and Aionios of both Heaven and Hell. Here are the following verses translating the words 'aion' = forever; everlasting etc.

Phil 4:20
ITim 1:17
Heb.1:8
IPet 1:23
IPet 4:11
Rev.1:6
1Jn.2:17
Matt.25:46
II Thes.1.9
Jude 1:13
Lk. 18:30
Rev.14:11
Rev.20:10

I find it personally insulting to the Holy Spirit of Truth that there are 'some'
in the Universalist camp who would have us believe we have to become experts in greek to understand what a passage or word means. To an ordinary common reader like myself, I have to trust in God that the words translated from one language to the other, conveys the intended meaning. I think the context of how aion is used will tell us if it is meant literally or if it is to be taken figuratively.

When I read Jesus rebuking the scribes, Pharisees and teachers of the Law with his stern warning, "unless
you believe that I am He (the Messiah), you will die in your sins", I didn't have to be a Greek scholar to understand what He meant. At its most basic level, death means to seperate and is often used in the bible in two senses. It certainly conveys the meaning of an end to biological life. But it also has a deeper spiritual meaning we cannot ignore, that of a 'final unending seperation' from the Life of God who alone is Eternal and can give this Eternal Life to whom He wills. Otherwise, Jesus statement is meaningless when He distinguished between the Life He gives to His sheep
and those who will not recieve His Life; "but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them ETERNAL LIFE, and they shall NEVER PERISH". Jn 10:26-28. There is no ambiguity to Jesus' words here, is there? So how do our CU friends take Jesus here, figuratively, or literally?

[Guest]

Good posts! Since the Universalists argue that 'aion' and its derivatives imply a period of time that can come to an end, then we should be able to apply their argument consistantly that all of the following will come to an end as well:




"Aion" does'nt imply a period of time it is an age and is used that way numerous times. Satan is the god of this "aion." Is Satan the eternal god or does he get destroyed?
Paul speaks of ages upon ages , scripture says this age and the age to come.
Of course God is the God of the ages because God is inherently eternal by nature , God is eternal by definition so He is the God of the ages as well as everything there is.

[Guest]

Here in this passage [2 Corinthians 4:18] the contrast is between the temporal and the eternal - the material and the spiritual. The Greek word "aionios" could not be translated to mean "age" in this passage because that still portrays a temporary duration for spiritual things which are eternal. This meaning makes no sense in the context which Paul is establishing which is a permanence of spiritual things over the temporary nature of the material world.

The passage may be interpreted that way if one is convinced that "aionios" means "eternal". But it doesn't. As I have affirmed many times, it never has that meaning. Nor does it have the meaning of "coming to an end" as you have falsely claimed that I have asserted.

Here is a proper translation of the verse. As one may see, your argument above does not seem to have any force unless your "eternal" meaning is assumed.

While we do not ponder the things which are seen, but the things which are unseen. For the things that are seen are temporary, but the things which are unseen go from age to age.

We could also translate the final clause as "the things which are unseen are permanent" ---- which makes a nice contrast to "temporary". We all know that "permanent" does not mean "forever", but indicates a longer period of time than "temporary". For example, you are not going to possess your permanent driver's licence forever! But you probably will possess it for a longer period of time than you did your temporary licence.

[Guest]

Hello Paidion,

Quote: "As I have affirmed many times, it never has that meaning."

If as you say "aionios" does not mean 'eternal', then what is the nature of the Life Jesus gives His sheep? What Life does He posess in contrast to that life which never perishes? John 10:26-28.

Have a Blessed Thanksgiving!
Bob

[Guest]

The aeonian life which Christ gives the sheep is life of a permanent nature which goes from age to age. It just so happens that this life will continue indefinitely, but that fact does not show that the meaning of "aiōnios" is "eternal".

Let me suggest an analogy. Suppose that there are a large number of blue model cars and white model cars. Suppose that all the white cars were manufactured in such a way that they break down in a month, but all the blue ones usually last more than 3 years. Can we infer from this that the meaning of "blue model car" is "lasting longer than 3 years".

Likewise, some things that are aeonian happen to be eternal. Others are not.

Thank you for the Thanksgiving wishes! I wish God's blessing for you, also. Though we live in Canada, and had Thanksgiving on October 8, one of my sons and his family, who recently moved to the area, are celebrating American Thanksgiving today, and I am invited!

[Guest]

Paidion,

You wrote:

The aeonian life which Christ gives the sheep is life of a permanent nature which goes from age to age. It just so happens that this life will continue indefinitely, but that fact does not show that the meaning of "aiōnios" is "eternal".

Let me suggest an analogy. Suppose that there are a large number of blue model cars and white model cars. Suppose that all the white cars were manufactured in such a way that they break down in a month, but all the blue ones usually last more than 3 years. Can we infer from this that the meaning of "blue model car" is "lasting longer than 3 years".

Likewise, some things that are aeonian happen to be eternal. Others are not.

You have stated that aiōnios "never means eternal", yet that which it modifies is something which is eternal. I don't get it; seems to be a distinction without a difference.

You say the life given to the sheep is "permanent", which does not mean eternal, and that its continuation is "indefinite". This would seem to necessarily imply an end at some point, or at least no certainty it will always be. Perhaps you can clarify what you mean by "indefinitely", as the word can mean "uncertain, not determined, unmeasured though not infinite", as well as "boundless or infinite".

And I don't get your analogy. You seem to be saying aiōnios means "usually" a long (or longer than something else) time, or maybe not.

Perhaps your illustrations are too lofty for me.

[Guest]

The sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal.

I had never encountered this quote previously, and so did an internet search for it.

First, I discovered that "De Mundo" is considered spurious ---- not to have been written by Philo at all. So it may not have been Hellenistic Greek at all. Secondly, I wonder why the title of the selection is in Latin, while the contents are in Greek. Thirdly, the final word as you gave it is "iphesteken", while the source I found gave it as "hupesthken".
I was unable to find the word in either the New Testament or the Apocrypha, and so cannot say whether it means "subsists" or "exists" or neither.

The most literal translation which I can give is:

Now in an age, neither is come with nor is about to, only [exists or subsists or whatever].

In any case, the meaning of the statement is not obvious, and can hardly be used to show that "aiōn" means "eternity".

But let us suppose that your translation of the passage is correct:

In eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists.

Would that mean that in eternity nothing ever happens ---- just subsists, that is, continues to remain in existence?

Is your future expectation subsistence in heaven with absolutely nothing happening? If this is "eternal life", I can't imagine a duller existence.

Another ramification of this concept would seem to be eternal subsistence for the lost. Nothing would ever happen in hell. Oh well, in that case at least those lost souls would not be tormented for ever. But they, too, would get awfully bored. Maybe that's what eternal torment would be for them. But it doesn't sound any different from the eternal destiny of those in heaven.

Also, if God lives "outside time" and in "eternity", then nothing would ever happen for Him. He would merely subsist or exist forever. No action would be possible on His part unless He could somehow "break into time".

[Guest]

You have stated that aiōnios "never means eternal", yet that which it modifies is something which is eternal. I don't get it; seems to be a distinction without a difference....
...And I don't get your analogy. You seem to be saying aiōnios means "usually" a long (or longer than something else) time, or maybe not. Perhaps your illustrations are too lofty for me.

Homer, you know that lack of intelligence on your part is not the reason you "don't get" my analogy. Your posts have clearly indicated sufficient intellligence. Perhaps you imply that you ought not to "get" my analogy, because it is not really an analogy at all. However, I think it is a good analogy, and so suspect that you really don't want to "get it" because you want to believe that "aiōnios" at least sometimes means "eternal".

However, I may be completely wrong in that suspicion, and so I will proceed on the assumption that you really don't see it as an analogy.

I'll begin with what you think I am saying with this analogy:

You seem to be saying aiōnios means "usually" a long (or longer than something else) time, or maybe not.

No. I think I have already stated several times that there is no meaning inherent in "aiōnios" which indicates either "an unending period of time" not "a period of time which ends at some point". Neither of the two is a meaning for aiōnios".

You have stated that aiōnios "never means eternal", yet that which it modifies is something which is eternal. I don't get it; seems to be a distinction without a difference

The difference is in the application. In the automobile analalogy, since the term "blue car" does not have the inherent meaning of "lasting longer than three years", it would be possible to manufacture a "blue car" which would be as much of a lemon as the white cars.

Similarily, since "aiōnios" does not have the inherent meaning of "eternal", then even though the aiōnios life of the sheep may continue from age to age forever, doesn't imply that other aiōnios things may come to an end. In fact, most occurences of the word in the Septuagint refers to just such things.

So one cannot maintain on the basis of the meaning of the word that the correction (or "punishment" if you insist) of the goats is eternal.

[Guest]

Here are just a few of the Old Testament passages from the Septuagint translation in which “aiōn” or “aiōnios” cannot mean “eternal” or “for ever”:

As for the rich city, the houses are deserted; they shall abandon the wealth of the city, and the pleasant houses: and the villages shall be caves for ever, the joy of wild asses, shepherds' pastures;until the Spirit shall come upon you from on high, and Chermel shall be desert, and Chermel shall be counted for a forest. Isaiah 32:14,15

How could could the villages be deserted forever until the Spirit comes upon the people? Obviously the Greek phrase “eōs tou aiōnos” does not mean “for ever” but rather refers to long period of time. This Greek phrase literally means “until the age.”

And the wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament, and some of the many righteous as the stars for ever and ever and yet [longer]. Daniel 12:3

Here we have another impossible situation, if theGreek phrase “eis tous aiōnas” (into the ages) really means “for ever and ever”. There’s a little Greek phrase “kai eti” which was placed immediately following “eis tous aiōnas”. The word “kai” means “and” and the word “eti” means “yet”. Thus we would have he stars shining for ever and yet even more or longer than “for ever”.

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown. Genesis 6:4

Here is a passage in which no translator is bold enough to translate “owlam” (the Hebrew equivalent of “aionas”) as “eternity”. If this had been done, we would have, “These were might men that were from eternity…”

The Septuagint uses the Greek phrase “ap’ aiōnos”. In this case, all of the translators (except two) to the best of my knowledge, translate the literal “from an age” as “of old”. That is a good translation, and meaningful in today’s English. Rotherham translates the phrase as “from age past times” and the Concordant translation has “from the eon” --- very literal, but uses the not-very-well-known English word “eon”. The American Heritage Dictionary gives the following definition of “eon”:

n. 1. An indefinitely long period of time; an age.
2. The longest division of geologic time, containing two or more eras.
[Late Latin aeon, from Greek aion.

In the New Testament, we have an interesting clause from Titus 1:2, where “aiōnos” occurs twice.
If “aiōnios” is translated as “eternal” in both instances, we would have:

…in hope of eternal life which the non-falsifying God promised before eternal times.

How can there be a time in which God made this promise before “eternal times”? Wouldn’t eternal time cover all time? And why would Paul use the plural “times” here? Is there more than one “eternal time”?

Most translations have “ages” in there somewhere. For example, the RSV has

…in hope of eternal life which God, who never lies, promised ages ago.

But notice that “aiōnios” is not translated consistently in the same verse! Indeed this verse has really confused the translators.

ASV --- before times eternal

The ASV at least translates the word as “eternal” in both instances.

AV, KJ21 --- before the world began

Douay --- before the times of the world

How did the word “world” get in there? Oh yeh, “world without end.”

Darby --- before the ages of time

ESV --- before the ages began

JB2000 --- before the times of the ages

NASB ---- long ages ago

NIV ---- before the beginning of time

NKJV --- before time began

The last two are self-contradictory. How can anything happen before the beginning of time?

And the literal translations have:

Rotherham --- before age-enduring times

Concordant --- before times eonian

Again, the concordant uses a little-know English word “eonian”.

e-o-ni-an also ae-o-ni-an
(e-one-n)adj. Of, relating to, or constituting an eon.

In conclusion, dozens of Biblical passages can be quoted in which “aiōnos” cannot mean “eternity” and “aiōnios” cannot mean “eternal”.

But of course, this doesn’t prove my contention that they never have these meanings. This is an inference which I have derived from their usual meanings, and transferred to passages in which some quality or individual or state is described as “aiōnos”, and those qualities, states, or individuals happen to be eternal as well. That fact in no way shows that the concept of eternity is inherent in the meaning of these words.