"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lord

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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Tue Nov 06, 2007 10:23 am

Greetings,

I started on nite shift at work this week---am wore out---but went ahead and made a post on Homer's new 1 Tim 4:10 thread. I'd posted on it here but don't recall getting a reply. Also, I'm starting to feel like the best thing we (or should I say I?) can do is just discuss the Scriptures: interpreting individual verses in their [full] context. For me, this would simplify things: Agree or disagree with the interpretation....

Bob & Homer,
Hi (if you guys are still around these here parts), :)

Todd,
Sorry but I couldn't make sense out of your last post to me.

Danny,
There's so much I could say...if I wasn't so tired.

STEVE,
On Revelation: I listened to Gregory K. Beale's Lectures on Revelation and they're really good! (Might discuss it here or on a new thread). Beale says those "outside" the New Jerusalem are not a part of the New Creation (I've never heard this before). Other than this, he interprets those who are outside as apostate Christians! Thought provoking/ OT background: Highly Recommended to ALL! <<< meant literally, hehehe :lol:

All (Reconciliationists),
The "clash" we've had on this thread is really worldview. Bob, Homer, and I are theologically conservative while 'you guys' are theologically liberal on issues relating to what we've been discussing. I'm pointing it out because I feel this is the underlying and primary difference we have. I'm too tired to say anything else right now. Sorry.............nap time here, Rick :wink:
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Post by _Mort_Coyle » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:03 pm

Hi Todd,
I'm curious, how would you characterize your message to these people? Is it something like, "God loves you and wants to help you straighten out your life"?
The jail is a unique environment because they are painfully aware of their sin and its consequences. In many cases they have come to the end of themselves. The chaplains at the jail (who do a fantastic job) tell me that conversions happen in jail, whereas discipleship happens in prison. People in jail are waiting for something; a trial, a transfer to prison, or release, so there tends to be a high level of uncertainty and anxiety. They are also overwhelmed by a feeling of powerlessness. Also, almost without exception, they are struggling with some form of addiction.

I work primarily with the prisoners in work release. These are men and women who are not prison-bound but are serving a relatively short sentence at the jail (2 weeks to 1 year). They are preparing to go back into "the real world", and have a lot of fears about "blowing it" again. My goal is to try to equip them to go back out and make different choices by drawing strength from their relationship with Jesus.

Typically these people have a Christian background but the message they've retained is that God is very angry at them and if they can straighten up God will love them. They try to do this and invariably fail. Hopelessness sets in. Then the attitude can shift to, "Well, I'm probably going to Hell anyway, so I might as well [insert sinful destructive behavior here]".

I focus on Jesus. In our Bible studies we stick (mostly) to the Gospels and I emphasize the character of Jesus; how He was a friend of sinners. Stories like the woman caught in adultery and the prodigal son really resonate with them. One thing I tell them, at almost every meeting, is that there is nothing they can do to make God love them more than He already does and there is nothing they can do to make God love them less than He already does, because God's love is perfect and its not about us, its about God (I borrowed this line from Brennan Manning ... or maybe it was Philip Yancey).

My goal is for them to see that God is for them and that He is approachable, even when we're at our worst.

The thing that I really stress is that God desires relationship with them. I encourage them to focus on the relationship, through prayer, Bible study, community, etc. I've found in my own life that if I focus on "sin management" it becomes self-defeating, but if I focus on my relationship with the Lord, and rely on His grace, the sin issues seem to take care of themselves.
Deliverance from sin is certainly the message of the New Testament. Since I came to believe in Universal Reconciliation, I have felt like that the traditional message of deliverance from post-death hell is not really the message that Jesus meant to deliver; rather, He was trying to help them straighten out their lives and to enjoy abundant life one can have through the Spirit. Not so much, "believe now so that you go to heaven when you die," but more like, "believe now so that you can have peace with God and man." Not that the afterlife was left out of the equation, but it was not the emphasis of the message as it seems to be portrayed today.
Amen. That's what I was trying to say (very poorly) in my little WOTM diatribe. Thank you for putting it so concisely and cogently.

Jesus doesn't save us from Hell, since Hell (in the commonly understood sense of the word) doesn't exist. He saved us (all) from sin. Sin causes estrangement from God, one-another and ourselves. Christ has reconciled all things. To enter into relationship with Him is to enter into that reconciliation.
The other thing I've noticed about myself since believing in UR is my heart towards unbelievers has changed. In the past, I would subconsciencely be thinking that God must hate these people because He will torture them forever if they don't repent. But now, my heart is filled with compassion for all people knowing that God truly does love everyone.
Oh yes! This is so true! I no longer think in terms of "us" and "them". It's all "us" and we're all in this together and will all, ultimately, be together in Christ.


Hi Rick,
There's so much I could say...if I wasn't so tired.
Boy, I can relate to that! Its when I'm tired that I tend to post things that I later regret.
The "clash" we've had on this thread is really worldview. Bob, Homer, and I are theologically conservative while 'you guys' are theologically liberal on issues relating to what we've been discussing.
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say we have different worldviews, but certainly different paradigms (thought patterns) in this specific area. Also I think the words "conservative" and "liberal" carry a lot of baggage that may not be helpful.
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_Father_of_five
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Post by _Father_of_five » Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:56 pm

Rick_C wrote:Todd,
Sorry but I couldn't make sense out of your last post to me.
Rick,

I apologize for not being more clear. Let me try to briefly explain.

You had taken the position that the word "creation" in Rom 8:21 referred to the renewal of the "earth" and did not include people. I had taken a position that "creation" in that verse was referring to all of God's creation, which includes mankind.

I was simply trying to point out that there are many scriptures which use the same greek word "ktivsi" which is sometimes translated "creation" and sometimes translated as "creature". In the scriptures I quoted, "ktivsi" was referring to people, not to the earth.

Todd
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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:29 pm

Todd,
You wrote:I apologize for not being more clear. Let me try to briefly explain.

You had taken the position that the word "creation" in Rom 8:21 referred to the renewal of the "earth" and did not include people.
I don't know where you got that idea (I know I didn't say it).

I've consistently maintained that believers will be the re-creation of the heavens and earth, the universe!
You also wrote:I had taken a position that "creation" in that verse was referring to all of God's creation, which includes mankind.
We disagree on the meaning of the verse, the passage, and in our basic beliefs. You believe all mankind = the sons of God. I believe the sons of God are only God's (s)elect/special people (believers).

You quoted 2 Cor 5:17 which shows that believers "already" participate in the New Creation within themselves: the New Creation has begun in those who believe. But believers also "do not yet fully have" all they will inherit as the New Universe itself hasn't been "revealed" (Greek, unveiled). This won't occur He comes back; when the sons of God [believers] are revealed with Him in glory.

Romans 8:18 (NASB)
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.


By "us" Paul means believers.

I hope this clears my view on this point, Todd.

Just woke up, on nite shift now, coffee time, :wink:
Rick
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:43 pm

You believe all mankind = the sons of God. I believe the sons of God are only God's (s)elect/special people (believers).


Sorry to cut in here but i think Todd was referring to the "creation" groaning for the revealing of the Sons of God which meant the unsaved groaning for the believers to be glorified.
The issue was WHY would the creation be groaning IN EXPECTATION if they were going to eternal hell?
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Post by _Father_of_five » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:05 pm

Rick_C wrote:You believe all mankind = the sons of God. I believe the sons of God are only God's (s)elect/special people (believers).
Rick,

Just to clear things up a bit. This statement is not correct. If you go back and read the earlier post, I made it very clear I believe (as do you) that the "sons of God" is referring to God's elect. Paul makes this very clear in this verse...

Rom 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

What I have said is that the whole creation will share in the glorious liberty WITH the sons of God. This is what Rom 8:21 says. I have also said that the "whole creation" is everyone else that is not numbered with the "sons of God." In other words, Universal Reconciliation in the end.

sons of God = God's elect, believers
creation = the rest of God's creation including everyone else

Paul says both groups will share in the same glorious liberty.

Hopefully, you understand me now.

Todd
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:15 pm

STEVE,
On Revelation: I listened to Gregory K. Beale's Lectures on Revelation and they're really good! (Might discuss it here or on a new thread). Beale says those "outside" the New Jerusalem are not a part of the New Creation (I've never heard this before). Other than this, he interprets those who are outside as apostate Christians! Thought provoking/ OT background: Highly Recommended to ALL! <<< meant literally, hehehe

All (Reconciliationists),
The "clash" we've had on this thread is really worldview. Bob, Homer, and I are theologically conservative while 'you guys' are theologically liberal on issues relating to what we've been discussing. I'm pointing it out because I feel this is the underlying and primary difference we have. I'm too tired to say anything else right now. Sorry.............nap time here, Rick


Rick, You're right there is a fundamental difference between how the two sides view the character of God.
IMHO you view God as vengeful and petty and unmerciful to the vast majority of mankind. Man was made from the beginning with both good and evil in him as can be seen by Eve's own internal reactions to the devil's temptations. Eve who was innocent was tempted by the greatest evil force in the universe which God arranged yet due to this failing most of mankind will spend eternity in hell.
From my perspective this characterization of God's character is so off the mark that i find it difficult to choose the right words to address this.
Jesus "loved his enemies."
Jesus "forgave his murderers."
Jesus spent his time with sinners and understood them and yes he told them to "go and sin no more."
Why did he say that? So that we do not become a slave to sin.
Jesus was stern with the religious hypocrites who thought themselves more righteous and i have no doubt how the Pharisees portrayed God.
Jesus's character was the exact image of God's.

God did make reference to "gehenna" in Jer 7.31 God referred to the burning of children in it as detestable , yet you believe God will do that very same thing for eternity. And you call this view "conservative."
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Post by _Rick_C » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:19 pm

Hello Steve, (you should listen to those Revelation lectures I linked to on Homer's 1 Timothy 4:10 thread), :wink:
You (just) wrote:1. Sorry to cut in here but i think Todd was referring to the "creation" groaning for the revealing of the Sons of God which meant the unsaved groaning for the believers to be glorified.

2. The issue was WHY would the creation be groaning IN EXPECTATION if they were going to eternal hell?
First, let's look at Paul's train of thought:
Romans 8 (NASB)
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.


Replies:
1. Paul personifies Creation. It "groans" (like a person would) as it's been subjected to futility and corruption since the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden; when humanity fell, Creation fell too (which is another subtopic and theme in the Bible).

Paul writes that Creation has "birth pangs" as it awaits our [believers] adoption as sons, linking this to the redemption of our [believers'] bodies. Paul says nothing about what unbelievers are to "expect" in this section of the chapter (Romans 8:14ff); their present and final state was covered earlier (Romans 8:1-13).

2. Creation isn't a "they". It is an "it". But why is it "groaning"? Paul pictures the present Creation like a pregnant woman in labor. When our [believers'] immortal bodies will be "born", Creation itself will be also renovated. Its pain and ours will be gone forever.

Breakfast time,
Rick
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:32 pm

STEVE,
On Revelation: I listened to Gregory K. Beale's Lectures on Revelation and they're really good! (Might discuss it here or on a new thread). Beale says those "outside" the New Jerusalem are not a part of the New Creation (I've never heard this before). Other than this, he interprets those who are outside as apostate Christians! Thought provoking/ OT background: Highly Recommended to ALL! <<< meant literally, hehehe


Rick, Thanx for the link, i listened to it and will give it a second try. Frankly i don't see any basis for how he concludes the unsaved are outside the "all things made new" and are in another dimension.
As an historicist i see time just marching on and take Rev sequentially , particularly after the second coming.
Therefore when i see verses like "Blessed are those who wash their robes , so that THEY MAY HAVE THE RIGHT to the tree of life and MAY ENTER the city by the gates" 22.14 as self explanatory.
It speaks to the unsaved to repent and come out of the lake of fire.
If the unsaved are in another dimension then pray tell who are the Spirit and Bride speaking to in 22.17 ?
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:38 pm

20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.




Rick, How can an inanimate creation be "NOT WILLINGLY" subjected to something? Humans have a will, trees don't.
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