"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lord
- _Mort_Coyle
- Posts: 239
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Bob,
If you could take a moment and read this document, which I referenced way back at the beginning of this discussion, it answers that question in great detail.
http://tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
If you could take a moment and read this document, which I referenced way back at the beginning of this discussion, it answers that question in great detail.
http://tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Hi Danny,
Quote: "The lesson of the Flood is that although God's punishments can be severe, in the end there is hope and a future."
Okay, sounds reasonable. But for who's future? The wicked? Or God's covenant people? As I understand the Justice of God, I agree , sometimes it is remedial. Yet there is nothing remedial in the Flood story for the wicked, even if you view it as an "epic myth". It is remedial for His elect people, if they are obedient to God. For the faith community, I see it as both a warning and an encouragement for hope in a better future, as you say. Yet, judgement of the wicked of this type, is for the specific removal of evil from the "new' covenant community (Noah) God is establishing. There is nothing restoritve or remedial about it. I beleve this indeed demonstrates God's mercy for the "saved"..God's mercy ultimately benefits only those He has redeemed. Not the wicked.
Quote: "The lesson of the Flood is that although God's punishments can be severe, in the end there is hope and a future."
Okay, sounds reasonable. But for who's future? The wicked? Or God's covenant people? As I understand the Justice of God, I agree , sometimes it is remedial. Yet there is nothing remedial in the Flood story for the wicked, even if you view it as an "epic myth". It is remedial for His elect people, if they are obedient to God. For the faith community, I see it as both a warning and an encouragement for hope in a better future, as you say. Yet, judgement of the wicked of this type, is for the specific removal of evil from the "new' covenant community (Noah) God is establishing. There is nothing restoritve or remedial about it. I beleve this indeed demonstrates God's mercy for the "saved"..God's mercy ultimately benefits only those He has redeemed. Not the wicked.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Danny,
From your tentmaker article: Is your answer to Bob that Christians have no expectation of "eternal" (forever and ever) life? The reason why I ask is:
B. Jesus probably didn't speak or read Greek (most scholars think, we don't know for sure). Luke actually transliterates Jesus' Aramaic words into Greek. Even if Jesus did know Greek; He would never have quoted from the LXX in the Temple and probably not around the common people as they detested Greek language and culture.
C. In the time between the Testaments the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead became prominent. There is nothing in either Testament to indicate resurrection life could or would come to an end.
So according to Hanson we should expect to inherit the Kingdom of God for a 'period of indefinite duration'. How long is that? If & when it's over, what happens then? (I'm really asking...not trying to be sarcastic). I need an eschatology that fills in these blanks, if possible.....
Jesus spoke of two ages!
Have a Good Day,
Rick
From your tentmaker article: Is your answer to Bob that Christians have no expectation of "eternal" (forever and ever) life? The reason why I ask is:
Hanson also wrote:Hanson wrote:CONCLUSIONS.
The conclusions to which any judicial mind must arrive are these: 1, It is uncertain from what source the word Aión sprang; 2, It is of no consequence how it originated; 3, Aristotle's opinion is not authority; and 4, It is probable that he was not defining the word, but was alluding to that being whose aión, or existence is continuous and eternal. That he did not understand that aión signified eternity, we shall demonstrate from his uniform use of the word, in the sense of limited duration. And we find no reason in its etymology for giving it the sense of endless duration. And if it did thus originate, it does not afford a particle of proof that it was subsequently used with that meaning.
A. Paul and the NT authors used the LXX (Septuagint, Greek OT) most often but not exclusively.4.-- THE NEW TESTAMENT USAGE.
AION THE SAME IN BOTH TESTAMENTS.
Speaking to those who understood the Old Testament, Jesus and his Apostles employed such words as are used in that book, in the same sense in which they are there used. Not to do so would be to mislead their hearers unless they explained a change of meaning. There is certainly no proof that the word changed its meaning between the Old and New Testaments, accordingly we are under obligation to give it precisely the meaning in the New it had in the Old Testament. This we have seen to be indefinite duration. An examination of the New Testament will show that the meaning is the same, as it should be, in both Testaments.
B. Jesus probably didn't speak or read Greek (most scholars think, we don't know for sure). Luke actually transliterates Jesus' Aramaic words into Greek. Even if Jesus did know Greek; He would never have quoted from the LXX in the Temple and probably not around the common people as they detested Greek language and culture.
C. In the time between the Testaments the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead became prominent. There is nothing in either Testament to indicate resurrection life could or would come to an end.
So according to Hanson we should expect to inherit the Kingdom of God for a 'period of indefinite duration'. How long is that? If & when it's over, what happens then? (I'm really asking...not trying to be sarcastic). I need an eschatology that fills in these blanks, if possible.....
Jesus spoke of two ages!
Have a Good Day,

Rick
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth
- _Father_of_five
- Posts: 213
- Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:37 pm
- Location: Texas USA
Rom 8:18-23
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
Here is a passage that gives a little information about the "End." Paul tells us that God's entire creation will share in the "glorious liberty of the sons of God." I think it is safe to say that mankind is part of God's creation. Paul tells us a few verses earlier who the "sons of God" are...
Rom 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
We also know that Paul is talking about the resurrection when he speaks of the "redemption of our body" (vs 23).
Here I believe Paul is giving reference to the order of the resurrection as he does also in 1 Cor 15. The dead in Christ rise first. This is the revealing of the sons of God. The creation waits its turn, "groaning and laboring with birth pangs." Then comes the end, death is destroyed, and all God's creation is raised from death (death is no more) to share in the glorious liberty of the sons of God, and God is all in all.
Peter makes reference to this also, I believe, when he speaks of the "times of refreshing" and the "times of restoration of all things" in Acts 3:19-21. All the "every knee shall bow" verses are talking about this. And it is referenced again in Revelation...
Rev 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"
So we see that Christ's sacrifice was not limited in any way, but serves to redeem all of God's creation.
Although faith in Christ and being led by the Spirit enables us to overcome sin and its consequences, it is Christ's sacrifice alone that brings God's creation into "glorious liberty" in the resurrection. It's not a "limited atonement," it is complete atonement.
I think it is important also to point out what Paul says about the creation.
Rom 8:20
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
Paul says that the creation was unwillingly subjected to futility. Those who are led by the Spirit have a 'special' opportunity to share in this glory in this life, while the rest must wait their turn in the resurrection.
1 Tim 4:10
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Todd
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
Here is a passage that gives a little information about the "End." Paul tells us that God's entire creation will share in the "glorious liberty of the sons of God." I think it is safe to say that mankind is part of God's creation. Paul tells us a few verses earlier who the "sons of God" are...
Rom 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
We also know that Paul is talking about the resurrection when he speaks of the "redemption of our body" (vs 23).
Here I believe Paul is giving reference to the order of the resurrection as he does also in 1 Cor 15. The dead in Christ rise first. This is the revealing of the sons of God. The creation waits its turn, "groaning and laboring with birth pangs." Then comes the end, death is destroyed, and all God's creation is raised from death (death is no more) to share in the glorious liberty of the sons of God, and God is all in all.
Peter makes reference to this also, I believe, when he speaks of the "times of refreshing" and the "times of restoration of all things" in Acts 3:19-21. All the "every knee shall bow" verses are talking about this. And it is referenced again in Revelation...
Rev 5:13
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!"
So we see that Christ's sacrifice was not limited in any way, but serves to redeem all of God's creation.
Although faith in Christ and being led by the Spirit enables us to overcome sin and its consequences, it is Christ's sacrifice alone that brings God's creation into "glorious liberty" in the resurrection. It's not a "limited atonement," it is complete atonement.
I think it is important also to point out what Paul says about the creation.
Rom 8:20
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
Paul says that the creation was unwillingly subjected to futility. Those who are led by the Spirit have a 'special' opportunity to share in this glory in this life, while the rest must wait their turn in the resurrection.
1 Tim 4:10
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Todd
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
What eschatology has greater substance than the reconciliation of all things to God? That's the biggest FINALITY of all!Rick wrote:3. Nothing personal but: Thus far a good defense of the universalist position hasn't been made other than it is what some posters believe. What I mean to say is: A "Big Picture" universalistic theology hasn't been presented, not to my satisfaction anyway. I need more than the universalistic interpretation of "so in Christ all will be made alive" and the other quoted verses. I need AN ESCHATOLOGY that has some substance to-it that I can see and understand, fully explaining---not explaining away!---the biblical passages that talk about God's Justice and the destruction of His enemies. Quoting a few verses just doesn't paint much of a picture, imo.
For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. {Col 1:19,20}
It can hardly be expected that any one of us on this forum can provide a thorough treatment of this subject --- or any other subject for that matter.
However, if you are serious about wanting details, or for a logically laid out foundation for the teaching, I recommend former University Professor Thomas Talbott's The Insescapable Love of God. Chapter 6, for example is entitled:
ESCHATOLOGICAL PUNISHMENT: AN INTERPRETATION OF THE NEW TESTAMENT TEACHING.
You may download the following four chapters for free, and decide on that basis whether you wish to purchase the book. That's what I did, and knew the book would be well-worth reading. I bought it.
Preface, Table of Contents, and Chapter 1
Chapter 3 : A Legacy of Fear and Persecution
Chapter 5 : St. Paul's Universalism
Chapter 11 : God, Freedom, and Human Destiny
Here is the URL. If you scroll to the bottom of the page at the site, you can click on any of the chapters indicated above and download them.
http://www.thomastalbott.com/
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Mike,
Good to hear from you! I had been wondering where you were. Hope all is well with you.
You wrote:
God forgives so we must. I am not sure this is a valid argument. We are not to be just like God in everything. We are specially forbidden to judge (condemn) others. He is not, that is solely His prerogative, and He has made it clear that He will judge. We are not to take revenge, but He has made it clear that He will, "vengeance is mine". And there is sin that He has clearly said He will not forgive, neither "in this age nor in the age to come", yet we must forgive.
You also said:
Very early on in this discussion I consulted Norman Geisler's "encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics" regarding Universalism. He cautioned that it was unwise to base theology on a wish, and I must say I have seen that underlying the universalist position throughout this entire discussion. I myself, If I could wish any of the systems advocated here, would want Paidion's to be true, but as Bob has said, sometimes the truth is a bitter pill.
Good to hear from you! I had been wondering where you were. Hope all is well with you.
You wrote:
I see a recurring theme in this discussion: "we are to be just like God".In hearing your story of the girl who was raped and murdered it brought to mind the story in another thread of the Amish girls who were murdered, and the reaction of their loved ones. It seems the reaction to that story on this forum was that the Amish were demonstrating the love of God and obedience to the commands of our Lord to forgive and love our enemies (so we could be like Him).
I think of this, and then I wonder. When I am watching those who have wronged me on the day of judgment, am I going to want them "condemned" to eternal torment or destroyed? Am I going to want to seem them "pay" for the wrongs they did to me? Or am I going to be like our Lord and say "Father, forgive them"? Will the pain I suffered in this life still seem important? Or will the joy set before me out-weigh the pains of this current life? I don't know.
God forgives so we must. I am not sure this is a valid argument. We are not to be just like God in everything. We are specially forbidden to judge (condemn) others. He is not, that is solely His prerogative, and He has made it clear that He will judge. We are not to take revenge, but He has made it clear that He will, "vengeance is mine". And there is sin that He has clearly said He will not forgive, neither "in this age nor in the age to come", yet we must forgive.
You also said:
But my mind has been changed! I began as an unquestioning believer in eternal punishment. I now see the possibility that conditional immortality is the correct view. I am just not yet convinced of it. I see not the slightest chance that Todd's view is correct, and although Paidion's view has much to commend it philosophically, it leaves more questions unanswered (raising many of them) than it has answers for. As Bob and Rick pointed out, Paidion has wiped out eternal life along with eternal punishment. And how do people in hell get saved?I could go on and address some of your questions about the warnings of our Lord, but what's the point? We have done this before, but not to your satisfaction. Noone's mind is going to be changed. You feel strongly one way, others (including me) feel strongly in the other direction. Probably we both will find (when all becomes clear) how little we understood the Grand Plan of our Lord.
Very early on in this discussion I consulted Norman Geisler's "encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics" regarding Universalism. He cautioned that it was unwise to base theology on a wish, and I must say I have seen that underlying the universalist position throughout this entire discussion. I myself, If I could wish any of the systems advocated here, would want Paidion's to be true, but as Bob has said, sometimes the truth is a bitter pill.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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A Berean
Hello Steve7150,
Quote: "Whatever tolerable means exactly is not revealed but i think it's safe to say it does'nt mean eternal punishment"...
I would not go to Vegas with your assumptions!
But, you have raised a valid point. How would it be more "tolerable" for Sodom and Gomorrah
than Capernaum in the Judgement? What would make the Judgement of the Twin cities of the Plain more bearable or endurable than Capernaums?
I don't believe we have to restrict the application of this lesson to these cities mentioned in Matt. They could be any city anywhere.
I think in part it can be viewed from the differences in circumstances.
Sodom and Gomorrah apparently would have repented had Jesus visited them with His message. He says as much in Matt. 11:20-24.
What stands out in my mind at least, is that God owes no one mercy. Some recieve justice while others recieve mercy. There is nothing in Scripture that I am aware of, that God must show mercy to anyone.
What is intolerable is when God does extend His hand of mercy and people refuse to repent and recieve it. There is no remedy for those who
remain in this state. God will eventually allow them to remain hardened in heart and through judgement, "cut them off".
IMO, I don't think Jesus is necessarily speaking about a persons "eternal"
destiny here. He is using hyperbole to drive home His message about real repentance. One that requires far more than what the "righteous Pharisees" believed. They thought they were pleasing and acceptable to God through their mere outward religious forms. Apparently, in Jesus view, Sodom's outward "wickedness" was more "excusable" in the sense they were not called to repentance. The Pharisees will have no excuse.
Quote: "Whatever tolerable means exactly is not revealed but i think it's safe to say it does'nt mean eternal punishment"...
I would not go to Vegas with your assumptions!

than Capernaum in the Judgement? What would make the Judgement of the Twin cities of the Plain more bearable or endurable than Capernaums?
I don't believe we have to restrict the application of this lesson to these cities mentioned in Matt. They could be any city anywhere.
I think in part it can be viewed from the differences in circumstances.
Sodom and Gomorrah apparently would have repented had Jesus visited them with His message. He says as much in Matt. 11:20-24.
What stands out in my mind at least, is that God owes no one mercy. Some recieve justice while others recieve mercy. There is nothing in Scripture that I am aware of, that God must show mercy to anyone.
What is intolerable is when God does extend His hand of mercy and people refuse to repent and recieve it. There is no remedy for those who
remain in this state. God will eventually allow them to remain hardened in heart and through judgement, "cut them off".
IMO, I don't think Jesus is necessarily speaking about a persons "eternal"
destiny here. He is using hyperbole to drive home His message about real repentance. One that requires far more than what the "righteous Pharisees" believed. They thought they were pleasing and acceptable to God through their mere outward religious forms. Apparently, in Jesus view, Sodom's outward "wickedness" was more "excusable" in the sense they were not called to repentance. The Pharisees will have no excuse.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Homer,
My comment about being like God was a reference to Matt. 5:43-48 where we are commanded to love our enemies so that we can be (perfect, complete) like God in this way. I doubt you really thought I meant that we were commanded to be like God in every way, right?
I was pleased to hear that there has been some movement in your position. I hope you continue to remain open to new ways of thinking!
I have spent much time over the last couple of years or so considering the universalist position. There is a lot of reading that can be done for free on the internet, including book-length treatments. Some of it is not well-written, but some of the writing is very scholarly. If anyone is interested, it does not take a long time to find this information (it does take a long time to read it though! :0)
I was pleased to hear Steve G. on his radio show admit that he had read some very well written universalist material. I know most people on this forum have a lot of respect for Steve. We who know him, know him to be a well-read, deep thinking person. I know he does not claim to be a universalist (yet!), but the fact that he sees some merit in the position should at least, I think, give pause to those here who would belittle the position.
I understand that you see wishful thinking in what you read from the universalists. As for me, I would prefer to think of it as being hopeful! But not without evidence!
I would love to talk more about Rick's comments about the universalists understanding of the atonement. I would love to discuss the Matt. 25:46, and the parallel between "eternal" punishment and "eternal" life. But it is so tiring for me to type this out, and I see no real communication going on (where there is understanding on both sides). So, for the most part, I have decided to stay on the sidelines.
But to all sides of this discussion, I implore to be more humble about your position. We all only see in part! God's Plan is probably (definitely?) much bigger and better than any of us could ever imagine! (And thats NOT a bitter pill)
Blessings,
Mike
My comment about being like God was a reference to Matt. 5:43-48 where we are commanded to love our enemies so that we can be (perfect, complete) like God in this way. I doubt you really thought I meant that we were commanded to be like God in every way, right?
I was pleased to hear that there has been some movement in your position. I hope you continue to remain open to new ways of thinking!
I have spent much time over the last couple of years or so considering the universalist position. There is a lot of reading that can be done for free on the internet, including book-length treatments. Some of it is not well-written, but some of the writing is very scholarly. If anyone is interested, it does not take a long time to find this information (it does take a long time to read it though! :0)
I was pleased to hear Steve G. on his radio show admit that he had read some very well written universalist material. I know most people on this forum have a lot of respect for Steve. We who know him, know him to be a well-read, deep thinking person. I know he does not claim to be a universalist (yet!), but the fact that he sees some merit in the position should at least, I think, give pause to those here who would belittle the position.
I understand that you see wishful thinking in what you read from the universalists. As for me, I would prefer to think of it as being hopeful! But not without evidence!
I would love to talk more about Rick's comments about the universalists understanding of the atonement. I would love to discuss the Matt. 25:46, and the parallel between "eternal" punishment and "eternal" life. But it is so tiring for me to type this out, and I see no real communication going on (where there is understanding on both sides). So, for the most part, I have decided to stay on the sidelines.
But to all sides of this discussion, I implore to be more humble about your position. We all only see in part! God's Plan is probably (definitely?) much bigger and better than any of us could ever imagine! (And thats NOT a bitter pill)
Blessings,
Mike
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
Hello Homer,
Quote: "But my mind has been changed! I began as an unquestioning believer in eternal punishment".
You know brother, I am beginning to think this way as well. Conditional Immortality may be the correct biblical view. That God's judgement upon the wicked is eternal, I have no question. The question; is "concious
unending punishment" what the Word teaches with regard to the eternal destiny of those who have all their lives refused Christ? Or is their final Judgement total annihilation? Either way, it is eternal and beyond remedial as our unversalist friends would believe.
I hear within Christian Universalism the 'hiss' of the Snake..."you shall not surely die"...
Quote: "But my mind has been changed! I began as an unquestioning believer in eternal punishment".
You know brother, I am beginning to think this way as well. Conditional Immortality may be the correct biblical view. That God's judgement upon the wicked is eternal, I have no question. The question; is "concious
unending punishment" what the Word teaches with regard to the eternal destiny of those who have all their lives refused Christ? Or is their final Judgement total annihilation? Either way, it is eternal and beyond remedial as our unversalist friends would believe.
I hear within Christian Universalism the 'hiss' of the Snake..."you shall not surely die"...

Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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i, too, have been swayed to conditional immortality. edward fudge's paper "the final end of the wicked" convinced me; it used to be available on line for free through JETS, but i think they made their site "non-free."
TK
TK
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)