"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lord

Post by **_Rick_C** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:55 pm

Danny,

I'll look at those links, thanks.

From the NTW lectures I linked to earlier: Space, Time and Sacraments

On Jan. 6, 2007 in Part One Wright stated:

People ask, "But what do you believe about Hell?" And I worry about that. I mean, I'm not a universalist. I do not believe that some day God will wave a magic wand and automatically transform everybody into saved saints. No. I do believe there is a prospect of eternal loss and it's a terrible thing. But simply to polarize everything as 'Are you going to Heaven or are you going to Hell?' is not a New Testament way of doing it. It really isn't. The New Testament is not about looking at life that way. Heaven is important but it's not the end of the world {audience laughter}. The whole point is that when we die we go to be with Christ which is far better....(he then continues with New Creation themes with believers (only and/or specifically) in mind, etc.).

This statement settles whether or not Wright is a universalist.

I agree that though he says a lot about God's Plans for His People (all the time in lectures and books); Hell isn't something that comes up often in either Wright's thought or in many [all too many] other Christian circles. Wright focuses on The People of God and their destiny (just look at his book titles). I wonder what a book by NTW entitled: "The Future of the People of the Devil" would be like? Probably, short.

We live in an age (no pun intended) when the topic of Hell is sort of hush-hush. I noticed it last nite in the sermon at a church I visit. The pastor's text was Psalms 21. He read all of it but "skipped" the judgment/destruction verses in his exposition. Skipped right over them and picked it back up. The sermon title was "It's all about YOUR Salvation" but missed key elements: how the text said God's enemies were and will be the objects of His wrath and destruction and that that is what we are SAVED FROM.

Wright and about everyone else talk a LOT about what we are SAVED TO (which is excellent). But that's just part of the Big Picture.

Okay, back to the Rockies.

Signed, a former enemy of God,
Rick

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:04 pm

I do believe there is a prospect of eternal loss and it's a terrible thing.

And that seems to be about as specific as he ever gets. I would love to hear or read an in depth treatise by Wright on Hell; what it is, who goes there, etc. Perhaps it's a little bit outside his rubric, but not that much.

BTW, I hope you didn't misunderstand, because, on review, I wasn't very clear: When I began my earlier post with "I disagree", it wasn't regarding Wright not being a Universalist, it was regarding your view that, "universalist thinking diverges from Wright's thought (and mine) so much so that it breaks down as a system". Just wanted to clarify that.

Post by **_Rick_C** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:14 pm

And that seems to be about as specific as he ever gets.

Shhhhhhh......he's English, remember?
And even we Americans, let's try not offend anyone, ok?
C'mon. Now let's be nice & proper!
My point made, back later to your MacDonald post soon, thanks for the clarification.
Rick (out),

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:28 pm

My parents are British. It's been said that there is only one thing an Englishman fears more than death, and that is making a scene in public.

Post by **_Rick_C** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:04 am

Funny.

I may have made it sound like I go along with Wright on about everything he says or writes; which I don't. I probably don't see the details of his "Big Picture" (eschatology) the same. But the fact that he sees things in a 'Big Picture' way...that's what we should be doing, imo (and, btw, I didn't want to turn the thread into being about NTW)....

Anyway, I'll be back to get into MacDonald later this week some time.
Rick

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:42 am

Okay, back to the Rockies

Sorry about your Rockies, i'm a Met fan so by default i had to root for the Red Sox , just so they could trump the Yankees.
Not very Christlike of me though.

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:29 am

MacDonald wrote:

… Once we see that God’s justice is more than mere retribution but is also restorative, and once we see that divine punishments are more than deserved but also corrective, then a way is open to see God’s final punishment as another manifestation of this very same justice and not something qualitatively different. It is retributive but also restorative. It is deserved but also corrective. Divine wrath can be seen as the severe side of divine mercy. It is just as much an act of God’s love as is his kindness. Granted, it is a side of God’s love it would be better not to experience but it is none the less loving for that."

I agree that it is important to understand the purpose of God's wrath as MacDonald explains here. We can certainly know that 'unending punishment' would serve no purpose, and resurrecting the dead only to destroy them again, would also serve no purpose, imo.

Todd

Post by **__id_1679** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:12 am

Brothers,

The sentiment shared among a few here that insists God would be "unjust"
to eternally seperate those who have willfully and continually rejected Christ in this life or age, is completely "off the mark".

By taking a survey of the Parables of the Kingdom and its consumation,
I really don't understand how anyone with any level of comprehension, can come away from an honest evaluation of Jesus words, that there is anything in them that hints of reclamation of any kind being offered to the unrepentant!

Jesus often used repetition. It is no more evident than in the Parables of the Kingdom from Matt. 13. Many points or themes are repeated, i.e., seed sowing, the kind of soil the seed lands in, the devils work, the wheat and the tares, good seed, bad seed and so on....

But when we come to the last of the parables, Jesus uses a new imagery,fishing, in the Dragnet story. There are repeated elements from the earlier parables, harvest, seperation of wheat from tares (ie; wicked from the righteous), the work of the angels, the end of the age, being thrown in the fire, weeping an gnashing of teeth are all there.

But, look at what is missing, or distinguishes the Parable of the Dragnet from the others. The "fishermen" in this story are not preachers of the Gospel. They are Angels. The setting is not when the Church carries the Gospel message throughout the world, but Final Judgement!

Look again at the elements of the other parables that are missing in this one. What's left out? There is no explanation of how the fish got into the water in the first place, nor any emphasis on their growth or lack of, no human workers, not even the devil. The only thing we have is the seperation of the 'good fish from the bad fish', the wicked from the righteous and the suffering of those cast into the fire. So what's new?

Pehaps what makes this "new" or distinguishes this parable from the others, is in the other parables there is mixture. The fate of the wicked has been described in all of them. Yet, in the Parable of the Dragnet, it stands out because imo, it is alone. It is not mixed in with the other elements. It seems as if Jesus with all particular emphasis, is saying to the wicked; Judgement is coming. A seperation will occur. It will be terrible. It will be final. It will be permanent.

What these parables don't say, Jesus covers in the Rich Man and Lazarus.
The suffering is not only intense, but conscious and ongoing. For Jesus tells us the Rich Man is told : "Son remember that in your lifetime you recieved your good things..."

Post by **__id_1679** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:09 am

Rick,

I would encourage you not to start anymore threads on any sub-issues you see going on here. At the "heart" of what we are discussing in "Every Knee Shall Bow..." is really about the Justice of God. If we peel off into the sub-topics, I think it will add more confusion than clarity. I do agree with the implications you see in Christian Universalism. I have touched on them briefly as well this views ramifications, especially for the Atonement motif as a central thought expressed throughout the entire Word of God.

Those who hold the Christian Universalist view conviently seem to forget, as was in the days of Noah, so shall it be on the Last Day. Remember, God "shut the door" to Noah's Ark. The Ark represented salvation and deliverence from the "wrath" of God. If you were not in the Ark, you were
killed. No salvation, nothing here about reforming the wicked. This imo is an "earthly" example of a heavenly reality to come. Jesus clearly stated, there will come a time "when the Master of the House" will close the door... like Noah's day. Those outside will be "weeping and gnashing their teeth". This is not an expression of the wicked in repentence. It is one of anger directed toward the Judge of the Living and the Dead before they meet their eternal destiny in the LOF.

Post by **_Father_of_five** » Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:59 pm

Traveler wrote:The sentiment shared among a few here that insists God would be "unjust" to eternally seperate those who have willfully and continually rejected Christ in this life or age, is completely "off the mark".

Bob,

God has placed in the heart of mankind a sense of right and wrong. One thing we know for sure is that torture is wrong and genocide is wrong - not only wrong, but the worst of wickedness; it is the worst form of injustice. We know this because our hearts tell us so. According to some, God will resurrect the unjust for the sole purpose of unending torture; or to commit mass genocide. Are we to believe that God will commit acts far worse than any human injustice? IMO it is more in line to believe that God's wrath is more like a loving Father disciplining His children, encouraging them to repent.

Secondly, the percentage of people who can be described as "those who reject Christ" or "wicked" or "evil" is very small. The fact is that very few non-Christians are 'evil' or 'wicked' or even have an opportunity to reject Him (not having heard of Him). As a matter of fact, I would say that most non-Christians are just as righteous as the vast majority of Christians. They raise families, have productive jobs, obey the law, support their communities, give to charities, etc. Sure they commit sin, and God rewards them according to their work, just as He does to Christians when He allows the consequences of those sins to have their deleterious effects. We're taught that we all "reap what we sow" (Gal 6:7-8 ), that God "who without respect of persons judges according to every mans work..." (1 Pet 1:17).

The fact is that we are all in this together; we're all in the same boat. Through faith in Christ we can be saved from sin's consequences as our walk in the Spirit enables us to overcome sin. Spreading the Gospel is vitally important to encourage others in the same way.

Lastly, Rick talks about looking at the 'Big Picture', so here's something to think about. We are told that Christ came to "seek and to save that which is lost" (Luke 19:10)...Are we to believe that He was only marginally successful in his stated purpose?

Todd