"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lord

[_Rick_C]

Paidion,

In your opinion, unbelievers, who you say will undergo post-mortem punishment to pay their penalty for not believing the Gospel while they lived; What will it be that they will "do"? Remember: their lives are over.

They sinned in their lives, which have come to an end. Since you say the the "gospel" is all about living a life free from sin; how will these unbelievers come back to life to live a holy life? Where does the Bible teach of this possibility for them?

Nicodemus wondered about this very same thing and asked: "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"
Jn 3:4, NIV)

Do you believe in some kind of reincarnation where unbelievers will have the chance to live a "second" holy life? Is reincarnation taught in the Bible?

Let's assume for argument's sake it isn't:
If this 'post-mortem punishment' is THE atoning penalty that pays the price for past unbelief in the Gospel; Christ's death did not "cover" that. Please show from the Bible where Christ's death did not atone for ALL sin---including the one sin that damns all who commit it---the sin of unbelief.

That is, assuming:
You agree with the Bible where it says--in many places!---that rejecting the Gospel is disobedience and, thus, sin.

You have yer homework cut out for you, Don!
Rick

[Guest]

For this discussion 'hades' is preferred over 'gehenna'. First, it is the word used in Revelation 20. Second, gehenna may have reference to the judgment of 70AD (which is another sub-topic that needs its own thread), imo.

When Jesus warned his hearers about entering into Gehenna, I doubt that He had the destruction of Jerusalem in mind.

The words "hades" in New Testament times meant "the grave" or "death".
It did not refer to a conscious place for the dead, except among the Jews. Christ used the Jewish belief as the basis for His parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

Clearly, the "ashen" horse (actually "chloros", i.e. "green") represented death. Indeed John stated it's rider's name to be "Death". This is why "Hades" (the grave was following with him):

Revelation 6:8 I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Thus in the following passage the sea and "death and the grave" gave up their dead (into resurrection) in the same sense that "The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised." {Matthew 27:52}

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

1. 'Orthodox' Christians claim:
a. Salvation is obtained in this life alone---by believing the Gospel: the "good news" that Christ has merited eternal life for all who believe.
b. Those who do not believe in this life cannot come to salvation in the afterlife because,
c. The Gospel will not be preached in the afterlife as Jesus Himself said, And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come (Matt 24:12, NIV).

"Orthodox" means "true". Are you suggesting that those who do not make these claims are not true Christians? Or do your single quotes around "orthodox" mean that you are using the word in an unusual sense? If so, in what sense?

Some universalists (as seen on this forum anyway) do in fact believe that there are at least two ways people can be saved, which are stated as:
1. Through currently believing the Gospel: the merits of the cross of Christ on our behalf to save us and,
2. Through undergoing a post-mortem meritorious punishment that atones for the current sin of unbelief (bold, for emphasis).
2. In this life there is one repentance to belief in one Gospel. The "correction" of not believing it is to believe it.

Please name those universalists on this forum. I amnot aware of any who believe there are at least two ways to be "saved".

If, as you say, the sin unbelief will be "corrected" in the afterlife and in the age to come---why wasn't this preached as integral TO the Gospel? Something this important should at least be a part of one of Jesus' teachings---but He never alluded to any such thing. Neither Jesus, Paul, Peter, nor anyone else in the NT offered post-mortem belief unto salvation as an option. I challenge you or anyone to show me where they offered it....

Why would they "offer post-mortem belief" to the living? They wanted ante-mortem discipleship in their hearers so that they could be enabled to live righteous lives through Christ's sacrifice, and to avoid such a severe mercy.

The Bible does NOT say, "For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whoever believes on Him---'either in this life or the next'---will not perish---'as no one WILL perish'---but have everlasting life"

John didn't write this because it is untrue. Those who do not become disciples in this life will perish, that is, become lost (same Greek word). But the lost can be found!

Jesus said the good shepherd would seek for the lost sheep until he finds it.

The loving father said, "This my son was dead and is alive ---- was lost and is found.

Don't you think John should have made at least some sort of remote "hints" in this most Primary of Gospel Verses?

The argument from absence is not valid. There are plenty of other scriptures that make the point. One either accepts them, ignores them, or explains them away.

Examining just one passage for now:

So then, just as through one offence, condemnation of all people resulted, so also through one righteous act, justification of life of all people resulted.
{Rom 5:18}

It has pointed out that the word "all" in the New Testament doesn't always mean "all". That is true. But if literally everyone is included in the condemnation from Adam and Eve's offence, then literally everyone must be included in justification of life.

But Paul elaborates further:

For just as through the disobedience (lit. "not listening") of the one person, the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience (lit. "listening") of the one, the many will be constituted righteous. {Rom 5:19}

When the one person Adam, didn't listen to God's instruction, and ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the many, that is (everyone else among mankind who would be their offspring) were constituted sinners. Not just "many", but "the many" ----- everyone else.

Likewise by the obedience of the one personChrist in sacrificing Himself on the cross, the many, that is, everyone else, will be (future tense in Greek) constituted righteous.

So what becomes of the concept of limited atonement? That fewer than 1% of all people who ever lived benefit from Christ's atonement?

[Guest]

Paidion;

You wrote: "John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I know of no Christian believer in the reconcilation of all to God who doesn't believe these words of Jesus. I know of none who think there's another way of becoming acceptable to God. I know of none who preach, "You can either come by the way of the cross, or you can come by the fires of Gehenna." Those who will be in Gehenna must repent and submit to Christ just as you and I have done. There is no other way".

I am not arguing your point with the exception that there is only one lifetime, age, in which we may come to repentence, which is now!

Show me from the Word where those in Gehenna are given "another" opportunity to repent. I am not arguing against John 14:6! I am arguing there is no other opportunity beyond this present age as I understand from the Word, that even suggests unbelievers have "another chance at repentance". I do wish that were the case! I just don't see it.

[_Rick_C]

Paidion,

Incidentals:

Whether you agree that gehenna may be about 70 AD or not is moot.

Thanatos is the NT word for "death"---not hades. Hades is the NT equivalent of the OT sheol: the realm of the dead.

Particulars:

I wrote:
1. 'Orthodox' Christians claim:
a. Salvation is obtained in this life alone---by believing the Gospel: the "good news" that Christ has merited eternal life for all who believe.
b. Those who do not believe in this life cannot come to salvation in the afterlife because,
c. The Gospel will not be preached in the afterlife as Jesus Himself said, And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come (Matt 24:12, NIV).

You replied:
"Orthodox" means "true". Are you suggesting that those who do not make these claims are not true Christians? Or do your single quotes around "orthodox" mean that you are using the word in an unusual sense? If so, in what sense?

'Orthodox' in quotes was to identify those who have 'traditional (Protestant)' beliefs.
I wrote nothing about who is or isn't a 'true Christian'.

I wrote:
Some universalists (as seen on this forum anyway) do in fact believe that there are at least two ways people can be saved, which are stated as:
1. Through currently believing the Gospel: the merits of the cross of Christ on our behalf to save us and,
2. Through undergoing a post-mortem meritorious punishment that atones for the current sin of unbelief (bold, for emphasis).
2. In this life there is one repentance to belief in one Gospel. The "correction" of not believing it is to believe it.

You replied:
Please name those universalists on this forum. I am not aware of any who believe there are at least two ways to be "saved".

Okay, let me rephrase it:

"Some posters on this forum" do in fact believe that there are at least two ways people can be saved, which are stated as:
1. Through currently believing the Gospel: the merits of the cross of Christ on our behalf to save us (which is what 'orthodox Protestant Christians' believe as well) and,
2. Through undergoing a post-mortem meritorious punishment that atones for the current sin of unbelief (bold, for emphasis); I don't believe the Bible teaches this; that after death salvation can be merited, earned, paid for by personal suffering, atoned for by personal suffering, or even acquired, as it will no longer be offered! For those who who had rejected the Gospel about Jesus---which is preached (proclaimed, offered) only during this present age---it will be too late.

Any comments (from anyone) to #2 above?

2. In this life there is one repentance to belief in one Gospel. The "correction" of not believing it is to believe it. [starts my point #2 in my post, sorry, I should have had A. & B. or something]....

There is just one correction to disbelieving the Gospel: obeying God's command to believe it.

I wrote:
If, as you say, the sin unbelief will be "corrected" in the afterlife and in the age to come---why wasn't this preached as integral TO the Gospel? Something this important should at least be a part of one of Jesus' teachings---but He never alluded to any such thing. Neither Jesus, Paul, Peter, nor anyone else in the NT offered post-mortem belief unto salvation as an option. I challenge you or anyone to show me where they offered it....

You replied:
Why would they "offer post-mortem belief" to the living? They wanted ante-mortem discipleship in their hearers so that they could be enabled to live righteous lives through Christ's sacrifice, and to avoid such a severe mercy.

I agree that believing the Gospel is "ante-mortem repentance"...as people repent and believe the Gospel before they die. This Gospel is preached only during--THIS--present age.

What is the "severe mercy to be avoided" you're talking about?

You haven't provided one single verse that says the Gospel includes that salvation can be obtained after death. Not one sermon from Acts, one saying by Jesus in the Gospels, and no teaching about it in the rest of the NT. I submit you can't provide it because it isn't there!

I wrote::
The Bible does NOT say, "For God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whoever believes on Him---'either in this life or the next'---will not perish---'as no one WILL perish'---but have everlasting life"

You replied:
John didn't write this because it is untrue. Those who do not become disciples in this life will perish, that is, become lost (same Greek word). But the lost can be found!

Jesus said the good shepherd would seek for the lost sheep until he finds it.

The loving father said, "This my son was dead and is alive ---- was lost and is found.

1. The lost sheep that Jesus sought and found had not died.
2. The Parable of the Prodigal Son is not about the eschatological themes of the resurrection of the dead and/or final judgment.
3. John 3:16 could potentially read "...that whoever believes in Him will not 'be lost'....". Translated like this, the meaning would be of losing one's soul (life, being, personal existence) = perishing. In context "perish" is the preferred translation. Otherwise, several extra English words would have to be added to convey the meaning.
4. Jesus was sent to the lost sheep or house of Israel. With the exception of His disciples, the remnant of Israel; those He came to were lost---while yet alive---they had NOT perished (died).

I wrote:
Don't you think John should have made at least some sort of remote "hints" in this most Primary of Gospel Verses?

You replied:
The argument from absence is not valid.

I strongly disagree: An Argument from Absence (or silence) is QUITE valid. The burden of proof is in your court!

There are plenty of other scriptures that make the point. One either accepts them, ignores them, or explains them away.

Examining just one passage for now:

So then, just as through one offence, condemnation of all people resulted, so also through one righteous act, justification of life of all people resulted.
{Rom 5:18}

It has pointed out that the word "all" in the New Testament doesn't always mean "all". That is true. But if literally everyone is included in the condemnation from Adam and Eve's offence, then literally everyone must be included in justification of life.

The Bible teaches all who are in Adam die and all who are in Christ will live; this is for sure. The above passage does not conclusively support, nor clearly state, what you believe it says.

But Paul elaborates further:

For just as through the disobedience (lit. "not listening") of the one person, the many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience (lit. "listening") of the one, the many will be constituted righteous. {Rom 5:19}

When the one person Adam, didn't listen to God's instruction, and ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the many, that is (everyone else among mankind who would be their offspring) were constituted sinners. Not just "many", but "the many" ----- everyone else.

Likewise by the obedience of the one person Christ in sacrificing Himself on the cross, the many, that is, everyone else, will be (future tense in Greek) constituted righteous.

The Greek can also mean "inattention" and "[paying] attention". To the Hebrew mind paying attention ("true hearing") is accompanied with obedience to what was said.

The doctrine of Original Sin says people are born constitutionally guilty due to Adam's sin; that they both inherit and partake of Adam's guilt and sin themselves as a result [by nature]. Christ "listened" to His Father's voice (and obeyed it). His obedience (listening to God and obeying Him) is NOT automatically handed down to the human race in an 'Augustinian Original Sin way'. Apparently you believe such to be the case as you say "everyone else = the many." It seems you've taken Augustine's 'framework' and applied it across the board but in reverse order. If so, I not only disagree with Augustine's concept of Original Sin but with your applying an Augustinian concept to Christ and all humanity, as it seems you've done.

Lastly,
Do you---or do you not---believe that those who reject Jesus (the Gospel) before they die will be punished for this after death?
And do you---or do you not---believe this sin can [then] be atoned for by those who had committed it?
I would appreciate direct answers.

Thanks,
Rick

[_Rick_C]

Bob,

Was that you on TNP radio today? Oops, yes it was! (I got your PM)!

I am not arguing your point with the exception that there is only one lifetime, age, in which we may come to repentence, which is now!

Earlier I wrote that 'orthodox Christians' (by which I meant 'traditional Protestants') believe:
a. Salvation is obtained in this life alone---by believing the Gospel: the "good news" that Christ has merited eternal life for all who believe.
b. Those who do not believe in this life cannot come to salvation in the afterlife because,
c. The Gospel will not be preached in the afterlife as Jesus Himself said, And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come (Matt 24:12, NIV).

When Jesus said "the end will come" He had to be talking about the end of this current age. No where does He or anyone else in the NT speak about the Gospel being preached in the next age ("the age to come" as Jesus called it).

I just wanted to reiterate that Jesus---Himself---specifically stated the Gospel will not be preached after the end of this current age....

Rick

[Guest]

I just wanted to chime in that I really appreciate the tone of this discussion. I think it is an example of how brother and sisters can disagree without getting nasty.

besides that, it is a fascinating discussion!

TK

[Guest]

I just wanted to chime in that I really appreciate the tone of this discussion. I think it is an example of how brother and sisters can disagree without getting nasty.

besides that, it is a fascinating discussion!

TK

I agree TK!

[Guest]

Earlier I wrote that 'orthodox Christians' (by which I meant 'traditional Protestants') believe:
a. Salvation is obtained in this life alone---by believing the Gospel: the "good news" that Christ has merited eternal life for all who believe.
b. Those who do not believe in this life cannot come to salvation in the afterlife because,
c. The Gospel will not be preached in the afterlife as Jesus Himself said, And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come (Matt 24:12, NIV).

Rick,

Okay, I'm back in the discussion.

You said that those who do not believe the gospel in this life (reject it, as you said in another place) can never be saved. One problem with this statement is that it doesn't apply to the vast majority of mankind who never have the opportunity to hear it, much less reject it. Yet you offer no biblical solution for these people unless it is damnation. If that is the case then your view is akin to Calvanism.

Also, may I ask, what is the purpose for resurrecting the unjust if all God intends to do is either (1) torment them forever, or (2) destroy them again? This makes absolutely no sense to me in either case. If God has no intention of having a relationship with these people then He would mercifully let them stay dead imo.

Thirdly, how can death be destroyed if people are either (1) annihilated, which means dead, or (2) languish forever in the second death?

Todd

[_Rick_C]

Hi Michelle and TK,

If the Bible wasn't entirely fascinating I might not have read it so very intently when I was on the verge of becoming a 'confirmed atheist'. My reading it [without preferences regarding what it said, "Who cares?"] led me back to the Lord---or He to me---or both (we'll leave 'which?' for the Calvinists and Arminians to decide. Well, we could go with Paul who would have probably have said "both")....

Welcome back, Todd,

I wrote:
Earlier I wrote that 'orthodox Christians' (by which I meant 'traditional Protestants') believe:
a. Salvation is obtained in this life alone---by believing the Gospel: the "good news" that Christ has merited eternal life for all who believe.
b. Those who do not believe in this life cannot come to salvation in the afterlife because,
c. The Gospel will not be preached in the afterlife as Jesus Himself said, And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come (Matt 24:12, NIV).

You replied:
Okay, I'm back in the discussion.

1. You said that those who do not believe the gospel in this life (reject it, as you said in another place) can never be saved.

2. One problem with this statement is that it doesn't apply to the vast majority of mankind who never have the opportunity to hear it, much less reject it. Yet you offer no biblical solution for these people unless it is damnation. If that is the case then your view is akin to Calvanism.

3. Also, may I ask, what is the purpose for raising the unjust if all God intends to do is either (1) torment them forever, or (2) destroy them again? This makes absolutely no sense to me in either case. If God has no intention of having a relationship with these people then He would mercifully let them stay dead imo.

4. Thirdly, how can death be destroyed if people are either (1) annihilated, which means dead, or (2) languishing forever in the second death?

My 'numbering system' is a trick I learned from a guy@ Beliefnet. I hope it helps us address one another & the points we raise....

1. I've tried to be clear, perhaps without success, that those who reject Jesus (the Gospel "Good News" about Him) will not be saved. That is, those who have rejected Him after hearing have no hope...unless they believe at a later time. The NT is full of examples of people who rejected Christ, like in the Gospels. But later in Acts we know that so many thousands came to believe. Some of them undoubtedly had rejected Him earlier (see Peter's early sermons).

2. I posted Paul's biblical solution in reply to you on page 6. I'll repost it with some amendments:

Paul has some answers for you, Todd.

Romans 2 (NASB)
11For there is no partiality with God.
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14For when Gentiles[1] who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

[1] the Gentiles referenced here are believers (Christians)

Romans 10 (NASB)
11For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
16However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"

In reading Paul I find out what the real questions are and ask them too. According to Paul, all who have sinned [with or without the Law of God] will perish on a Day when God will judge all through Jesus Christ. Some will perish; Some will be saved.

Ironically, I got this saying from a Unitarian Universalist I used to 'debate' @ Beliefnet who wrote:
"Unquestioned answers are far more dangerous than unanswered questions."

In my opinion: You have to ask the right questions first. The bolded questions of Paul, above, are what we should be asking; they are the correct questions, imo.

Verse 16: Note how Paul also wrestled with the problem of those who did not believe his message.

Lastly on this point: If the Apostles weren't absolutely convinced that Christ is the sole hope for salvation; we would have never heard of the God of the Bible! and His Son Jesus! Are you trying to get me to become a missionary, Todd? Btw, you've just persuaded me to start giving financial support to missionaries, now that I have a decent job, etc. (THANK YOU)!

3. Raising the just and unjust to final judgment is God's plan for humanity. Why He is going to do things this way is beyond what I can fully grasp. But we know that there will be a New Creation which, in fact, has already begun in us who believe (2 Co 5:17). At this same time [now] it is also not-yet (Ro 8:15ff). We live in a "time tension" where we already have "all things new" yet do not.

N.T. Wright talks a lot about these kinds of things. He says, and I believe he is correct, our tendency is view being a Christian as simply "going to heaven when I die" while neglecting--or not acknowledging--the ultimate plans and purposes that God has for us. These NTW lectures are excellent: Space, Time and Sacraments.

In Genesis humanity had a "chance" (for lack of vocabulary) to live with God forever. Through Adam, however, that possibility was temporarily negated. Through another man, Jesus, that possibility is being realized. We presently live between the ages of Creation and the New Creation yet they overlap from both directions.

To reply more specifically to your point (3); the Bible teaches that God desires relationship with everyone: He so loved the world sending His Son! But it also teaches that not all will come into relationship with Him...by their own choice (see Ro 10:16 again). When this is the case God does not force Himself on anyone. Only He in His sovereignty understands the intricate details of the whos, whys, hows, and whens of all these things. Our biznis, imo, is to answer Paul's questions above! and to look beyond future events as 'singular' and without purpose outside of God's Cosmic Plans! (We need to see everything in The: Big Picture...in so far as God makes it known to us)....

4. "Death" which is personified in 1 Co 15 and Rev 20 will no longer "be" in the New Heavens and New Earth. It just won't be [a] reality after it is done away with. The Second Death is the last of all deaths. From that point on it won't be experienced.

Thanks for 'making' me read the Bible folks,
Rick

[Guest]

According to Paul, all who have sinned [with or without the Law of God] will perish on a Day when God will judge all through Jesus Christ. Some will perish; Some will be saved.

Rick,

I didn't understand your answer the first time you posted, and I must confess, I still don't understand. As best as I can tell from what you have said, those who never hear the gospel are destined to perish (hell). Is that what you said?

3. Raising the just and unjust to final judgment is God's plan for humanity. Why He is going to do things this way is beyond what I can fully grasp.

To raise someone only to destroy them again makes no sense to me. I'm still persuaded that the traditional view as you have described is not correct. Let each of us be persuaded in our own mind.

4. "Death" which is personified in 1 Co 15 and Rev 20 will no longer "be" in the New Heavens and New Earth. It just won't be [a] reality after it is done away with. The Second Death is the last of all deaths. From that point on it won't be experienced.

So it seems you are saying that the 'destruction of death' means that there will be no more dying - that no one will die any more. While that may be correct, I think that if someone is dead then death still exists and has not been destroyed. At least that's my opinion, for what it's worth.

Thanks for your reply. God bless you, Rick.

Todd