"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lord

[Guest]

Hello Steve7150,

I wrote:

Since eternal punishment was a belief held prominently by the Jews, and also by many of the gentiles (it was so well known among the gentiles that it has been charged by some that they were the source of the Jew's belief in it), why would Paul and the Apostles need to mention any more than the coming judgement while preaching the gospel?

Given this well known belief among both Jews and gentiles, current during the preaching of Jesus and the Apostles, what is more telling is the fact that they never thought to disabuse those they preached to of this supposed falsehood. It is particularly surprising that Jesus never corrected the Pharisees in this matter given His many confrontations with them.

And in response you wrote:

This is not true that the jews believed in eternal punishment. There was virtually no concept of heaven or hell in the OT. There was'nt even a word for hell just "sheol" which means grave.
As far as gentiles go they had all kinds of different beliefs based on whatever pagan religion they followed.

You appear to have not noticed the bolded part. I have no concern for what was the common belief in the time of Abraham, Moses, or David. There is good evidence for my statement. The following information is from Alfred Edersheims' "The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah", Appendix XIX, "On Eternal Punishment According to the Rabbis and The New Testament":

"....from the time just before that of Christ, from the schools of Shammai and Hillel. The former arranged all mankind in three classes: the perfectly righteous, who are 'immediately written and sealed to eternal life'; the perfectly wicked, who are 'immediately written and sealed' to gehenna, and an intermediate class, who 'go down to gehinnom and moan and come up again'....

Note: The "perfectly wicked" are clearly distinguished from the third, or "intermediate class", who merely go "down to gehinnom", but are " not written and sealed" and "come up again".

And Edersheim says:

....the school of Hillel might accentuate the mercy of God, or limit the number of those who would suffer eternal punishment, it did teach eternal punishment in the case of some.

But since the schools of Shammai and Hillel represented the theological teaching in the time of Christ and His Apostles, it follows, that the doctrine of eternal punishment was that held in the days of our Lord, however it may afterwards have been modified.

There can be no question....that both great schools , into which Rabbinic teaching at the time of Christ was divided, held the doctrine of eternal punishments.

The doctrine of eternal punishment seems to have been held by the Synagogue throughout the whole first century...."

Apparently these are the beliefs referenced in the statement attributed to Josephus. Again I ask why Jesus never corrected the idea of eternal punishment if it was false?

You also said in your recent post:

But destruction is entirely different then living for eternity in hell as a punishment for a finite period of sin on earth.

What on earth does the length of time in sin have to do with the time spent being punished? Does a man who rapes a child deserve a shorter time in prison becouse his crime (sin) only lasted a few minutes? I do not see your point. Could it be that the enormity of sin (which we minimize, especially in our own case) requires an infinite judgement?

I acknowledge that it may well be the case that those who have never heard of Jesus may receive mercy, ("blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy") or God may know those who would have accepted Jesus had they heard of Him. The scriptures seem to me to address those who accept or reject the Gospel; little is said about the rest. To me it is best to leave it there in His hands. My impression of the entire Universalist position, of all stripes represented here, is that it is largely influenced by wishful thinking and a strained interpretation of scripture.

[Guest]

Well said Homer!

Peace to you, In Jesus,
Bob

[Guest]

Steve7150,

Quote: "So it's not that God owes us mercy, it's that it's part of His character to be merciful. God is love, love fulfills the law, the weightier parts of the law are justice,mercy and faithfulness." Matt. 23:23

You are right. But where does it say or even imply that He must show mercy in every case? Aren't you being presumptious? Wasn't it God who told Moses; "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy"? Just because these things youv'e cited are true of God's character, I wouldn't even suggest He is bound in some absolute sense to display them in every case. Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees for "majoring in the minors" while rejecting and at the expense of the weightier matters of the Law. He was not giving them a theology lesson about God's character, but rebuking them for their misplaced emphasis on externals.

To be fair to the text in context, of Matt. 23, clearly Jesus was "laying the wood" to the Pharisees. He was judgeing their hypocrisy with the 7 woes of judgement. This is clearly a pronouncement of condemnation, even saying " How will you escape being condemned to Hell" and that all the "righteous blood from Abel to Zechariah" would be on their heads. In conclusion, Jesus said that their "House would be left to them desolate" which of course happened in 70 A.D.

There is much more being said or implied here than merely a "finite punishment for finite sin". You think my answer was a 'cop out' to the problem of God's justice? I think it is with your thinking regarding the justice of God. I think you suffer from a very shallow view of what God's absolute justice requires. Of one thing I am absolutley sure of. The Judge of Heaven and Earth always judges fairly and according to His righteousness. No "innocent" people will ever be condemed or punished. No "guilty" person will ever be aquitted of their crimes.

Allow me to share only a few laws under the Mosaic covenant for which the guilty could be put to death for:

striking or cursing parents, desecrating sacrificial offerings, murder, kidnapping, idolatry, child sacrifice, blasphemy, sabbath violations, child sacrifice, the practice of magic, necromancy, consulting mediums, witchcraft, (any Wiccans looking?) unlawful divorce, homosexuality, incest, bestiality, prostitution of virgins, rape, false prophecy, bearing false witness in a capital case, refusing to obey the verdict of a priest-judge..

Was God any less gracious, merciful, kind, loving, etc. under the "OT", than He is now under the New? Think carefully about it.

[_Rick_C]

Todd,

I want you to know that it's pretty hard to post back to you because you quote Scriptures and seem to either ignore their contexts, don't understand them, or go by "hunches" or something. So when I post back I have to post the verses you cite and the ones around them to "get" the context. (I've enjoyed digging into the Scriptures though).

You've disagreed with me about Christ destroying all evil rule, power and authority at His Second Coming and did not reply to that I believe the text says this includes not only those rules, powers, and authorities (themselves), but all of the the people who ally with them.

Col 1 (NIV)
2giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light. 13For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

You do not believe the inheritance is for believers only as I believe and also think Paul believed, (Col 1:14, bold). "The dominion of darkness" in this text is synonymous with every evil "rule, power, and authority"...spiritual wickedness in high places elsewhere...and all of those who are aligned with them: evil people in the devil's kingdom, his domain of wicked, foul spirits (note: "rules, powers, and authorities" in the Bible can refer to humans or spirits, and often both).

You believe all of those who are in the kingdom of darkness will be saved. There's no biblical basis for this, imo.

In Romans 13 the governmental authorities are described as servants of God who are the "instruments of wrath" to those who break the law: If, for example, someone murders and gets caught by the authorities they will pay the penalty. The governmental authorities Paul is describing has to do with God's oversight (sovereignty) over the world in general and the keeping of basic law & order in it. Paying the penalty for a law broken is incurring or receiving wrath. But God's particular wrath and the wrath of society are not the same. If someone committed an "evil" and got caught they would pay the penalty to society, said Paul. Paying the penalty to society doesn't automatically pay the debt to God (Paul does not say this in the passage as you affirm).

Btw, I used to be a Corrections Officer (prison guard). In that position I was a "servant of God" by Paul's meaning in Romans 13. Not every C.O. was a servant of God as in a Christian...an important distinction here.

Since you do not believe in a final judgment of all; that they are accountable to God for their sins; I presume you think an unrepentant murderer can go to prison, do his/her time, and come out forgiven by God. Or an alcoholic can go to prison for drunken manslaughter in the same manner and come out the same. You are quite mistaken if you do, imo. Paying a debt to society is one thing, to God quite another.

You offered no rebuttal on 1 Cor 6:9-11 which explicitly states that the unrighteous will NOT inherit the kingdom of God--including unrepentant murderers (and drunkards, see my testimony below). Until you do, I agree with Paul and continue to say what you believe is incompatible with the Bible's teaching.

You first said God's wrath is "poured out" on unbelievers right now, in the present. I showed how you were wrong on that; that it is "revealed" from heaven. Now you are accusing me of saying "God does nothing" regarding the people spoken of in Romans 1. I said no such thing.

In Romans 1 those who God has given up on have rejected Him and the conviction of sin. God let them be; permitting them to "go their own way" and, as a result, they received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion (Rom 1:27b). By leaving them to their own devices the penalty of their sins is to keep doing them more and more, they become an addiction. When the Bible says "God hardens people's hearts"...His call to them is rejected over and over, resulting in a hard-heart condition. There comes a time when He just lets people do as they will.

I didn't say "God does nothing" about people deeply entrenched in sins of this reprobate and/or addictive sort. I, myself, am a recovered alcoholic...and I can tell you that I resisted the Spirit of God for many many years. God literally let me wallow in my mire. He "called to me" many a time but I rarely listened. I believe there was a few years when He basically let me go. Was He doing nothing? No. He knew my heart and that it was set against doing things His way; He didn't force Himself on me. Was he doing "nothing"? He did all He could do and had no choice with me but to let me go my own way. The 12 Steppers call this "detachment"...but I thank God He didn't give up on me. I finally decided to listen to Him, am sober, and as a consequence, still alive today.

1 Cor 6:9-11 says I would not have inherited the Kingdom had I continued as an alcoholic. I read these verses and they got me sober (God, thru them). If I did things how you're suggesting I could have gone ahead and drank myself to death and still been saved. I assure you, that would not have been a good thing for me in this life, nor in the next. Believe as you may; I know God saved me and, had I not repented in this life, I would have died an alcoholic death and gone to Hell.

1 Cor 15:26
The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

This is speaking of the resurrection of the unjust. Everyone who has ever lived is resurrected - there is no more death; death is destroyed. Since death is the 'last enemy' all of God's other enemies (e.g., sin and disobedience) have already been destroyed. This clears the way for every knee to bow and every tongue to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Disobedience and sin aren't enemies of God: disobedient sinners are.

I don't see the words "resurrection of the unjust" in 1 Cor 15:26---as they are not there. I've given exegetical posts showing how the enemies of God have been judged and destroyed. "Death" is personified here by Paul as if it was a personal enemy (person).

Rev 20 (NIV)
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Verse 10: The devil will be thrown into the Lake of Fire first.

Verses 11-13: Christ Returns and sits on the great throne of final judgment. Hades (the grave, abode of the dead) will give up who have gone there---all who have died before the Second Coming---all who have ever lived will be bodily resurrected and judged.

Verses 14-15: Death and Hades are lastly thrown into the Lake of Fire, synonymous with 1 Cor 15:26. Whoever has not been saved (not written in the Book of Life and delivered from the kingdom of darkness) will be cast into the Lake of Fire. The Second Death is what the Lake of Fire "is" and whoever is not in the Book of Life will go into it and be annihilated forever (though the devil, the beast, and false prophet will be tormented forever...interesting exemption on this, v. 10).

There will be no more death for those who are saved: The unsaved will experience the Second Death and will be no more.

Incidentally, believing in Christ is both a command [to obey] and, therefore, a "good work" (or deed). You dismiss this command as being necessary for salvation. I feel you are deeply mistaken on this.

Till you reply to what I've said (and have been saying) I don't especially want to keep this up "forever ", lol
But I want to thank you for making me rethink my positions,
Rick

[_Rick_C]

A follow up to Homer's post, from Jewish Encylcopedia: Gehenna

Btw, Homer, Edersheim was a cool dude, imo
A True Israelite Remnant Man! (Jewish & got saved)!
P.S. I posted on your "Jesus in the Talmud" thread but haven't got anything else for it just yet.

Judgment.

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B. M. 83b). To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners (Ḥag. 15a). Hence it would have been better for the latter not to have lived at all (Yeb. 63b). They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked" ('Er. 19a).

There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes (Ab. R. N. 41). A similar view is expressed in the Babylonian Talmud, which adds that those who have sinned themselves but have not led others into sin remain for twelve months in Gehenna; "after twelve months their bodies are destroyed, their souls are burned, and the wind strews the ashes under the feet of the pious. But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b). The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell (Lev. R. xxxii.). The Book of Enoch (xxvii. 3, xlviii. 9, lxii. 12) paraphrases this thought by saying that the pious rejoice in the pains of hell suffered by the sinners. Abraham takes the damned to his bosom ('Er. 19a; comp. Luke xvi. 19-31). The fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners because they confess their sins before the gates of hell and return to God ('Er. 19a). As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al.). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).

The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b). Enoch also holds (xlviii. 9) that the sinners will disappear like chaff before the faces of the elect. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners (Ned. 8b).

Bold, mine.
Several NT themes are alluded to here...if you can see them.

Interesting: Paradise or Gehenna......

There doesn't appear to be exact uniformity in what the Rabbis taught---not totally across the board anyway---so wouldn't it be our task to find out what Our Rabbi, Jesus, taught?

How can we understand what He specifically taught in His own context and setting? The "Several NT themes alluded to here"....should we look into those? I can see where He talked about similar things but had His own Halakah (teaching) about them along the lines of, "You have heard it said...(what other rabbis said) but I say to you...(what He taught)".

The overall feel of what's in this article seems to be more "non-eternal torment" and kind of "pro-annihilation" (in bold, Gehenna not permanent; Judgment Day, annihilation, etc.); yet there are exceptions.

Also, though Josephus was a first century Jewish historian; imo, he isn't always reliable on technical matters. Why I say this is: We have to keep in mind that he was telling Gentiles what Jews believed. In doing this, he may have over simplified and/or put Jewish ideas into "Gentile categories" or ways of saying stuff which might not portray things completely accurately. Take for example: the "philosophies of the Jews" where he describes Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, and Zealots along the lines of determinists, "free-willers", and so on (almost sounds like Arminians and Calvinists)....philosophies of religion though they be, imo, haha, Well never mind that for now.

Just some thots.......

Shalom,
Rick

[Guest]

I don't know who you were quoting, Rick (in your quote "judgment"). Was it Edersheim? I also don't know whether the Jews of Jesus' day believed in eternal punishment or not. I strongly suspect not. The teaching doesn't seem to have been prevalent until Augustine propogated it centuries later. I think the Jews of Jesus' day believed in consciousness in Hades, as in the discourse of Josephus concerning Hades. In any case, this quote from Judith does not indicate that the Jews of that day believed in eternal torment:

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17).

The same mistake is made here in translating "aiōn" (age)as has been made in translating the word in the New Testament. "Eternity" just ain't the meaning!

The final words of the Judith text are actually:

"... so that they weep in perception until the age."

The word I translated as "perception" is actually "aisthāsei", from which we get the English word "aesthetics". The Greek word refers to a perception both by the senses and by the mind. I suppose it was assumed by the translators that pain would give this perception and that may be the case. But my main point here is that it may last until the next age, but the text doesn't say it will last "unto all eternity". That is a reading of one's beliefs into the text.

[Guest]

What on earth does the length of time in sin have to do with the time spent being punished? Does a man who rapes a child deserve a shorter time in prison becouse his crime (sin) only lasted a few minutes? I do not see your point. Could it be that the enormity of sin (which we minimize, especially in our own case) requires an infinite judgement?

Homer, That was not my point, my point was that the gravity of sin can be measured by God. That's why some received many lashes and some received few lashes but none received lashes eternally.
As to what the jews believed in Jesus day, there is only one allusion in the OT to heaven and something other then heaven which is Dan 12 "everlasting life or everlasting shame."
Even in this allusion we can not tell what everlasting shame is, since nothing about fire burning people's skin or torment is mentioned therefore
this everlasting shame can be everlasting regret , not necessarily even a physical punishment.
However the bible clearly says unbelievers go into the lake of fire in Rev 20 including murderers and rapists but did you notice Homer also the timid go into the lake of fire?
But according to the traditional view it does'nt matter whether you are a rapist a murderer or just timid, it's eternal damnation for you.

[mgarrett]

Todd,

I want you to know that it's pretty hard to post back to you because you quote Scriptures and seem to either ignore their contexts, don't understand them, or go by "hunches" or something.

Rick,

From this statement it seems you are saying that since I don't agree with you, then I must be wrong. I just see it differently than you do. I do appreciate your lengthy explanations though.

You do not believe the inheritance is for believers only as I believe and also think Paul believed.

This is not correct. I do believe it just as Paul says. I just have a different view of what the inheritance is. You have affirmed that the Kingdom was set up in the first century. We are part of this Kingdom now, while we live. I believe that the inheritance is something experienced by the living. Those who are disobedient don't receive it.

My father passed away last year and left an inheritance, some to charity and some to family. If he had left it all to charity and I received no inheritance, would that mean I was being punished? I think not.

You believe all of those who are in the kingdom of darkness will be saved.

This is not true. Those who are disobedient will receive the wrath of God according to their works (in this life).

In Romans 13 the governmental authorities are described as servants of God who are the "instruments of wrath" to those who break the law: If, for example, someone murders and gets caught by the authorities they will pay the penalty. The governmental authorities Paul is describing has to do with God's oversight (sovereignty) over the world in general and the keeping of basic law & order in it. Paying the penalty for a law broken is incurring or receiving wrath. But God's particular wrath and the wrath of society are not the same. If someone committed an "evil" and got caught they would pay the penalty to society, said Paul. Paying the penalty to society doesn't automatically pay the debt to God (Paul does not say this in the passage as you affirm).

All I say is what Paul said. Paul said they were God's minister. I don't see society mentioned here.

Rom 13:4
For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Since you do not believe in a final judgment of all; that they are accountable to God for their sins;

This is not correct. I believe as Paul said:

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

You offered no rebuttal on 1 Cor 6:9-11 which explicitly states that the unrighteous will NOT inherit the kingdom of God--including unrepentant murderers (and drunkards, see my testimony below). Until you do, I agree with Paul and continue to say what you believe is incompatible with the Bible's teaching.;

See above.

In Romans 1 those who God has given up on have rejected Him and the conviction of sin. God let them be; permitting them to "go their own way" and, as a result, they received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion (Rom 1:27b). By leaving them to their own devices the penalty of their sins is to keep doing them more and more, they become an addiction. When the Bible says "God hardens people's hearts"...His call to them is rejected over and over, resulting in a hard-heart condition. There comes a time when He just lets people do as they will.

I didn't say "God does nothing" about people deeply entrenched in sins of this reprobate and/or addictive sort. I, myself, am a recovered alcoholic...and I can tell you that I resisted the Spirit of God for many many years. God literally let me wallow in my mire. He "called to me" many a time but I rarely listened. I believe there was a few years when He basically let me go. Was He doing nothing? No. He knew my heart and that it was set against doing things His way; He didn't force Himself on me. Was he doing "nothing"? He did all He could do and had no choice with me but to let me go my own way. The 12 Steppers call this "detachment"...but I thank God He didn't give up on me. I finally decided to listen to Him, am sober, and as a consequence, still alive today.

Rick, what you describe here is exactly what I have been saying. God allows us to wallow in the mire in hope that, in our despair, we will repent and return to Him.

This is my last post in this thread. I have an entirely different view of Rev 20 than you do which I have explained numerous times in other threads, so I won't go through it again here. I think we are both wearied of this debate.

I will say though that you are to be commended for defending the 'orthodox' view. because if you believe I am wrong, then you should want to set the record straight for others who read, and perhaps to bring me back to orthodoxy. However, I continue to challenge the traditional teaching of hell because I believe that Christ revealed in Himself the love of a God who could never be so unmerciful to any of his children to torture them forever or even destroy them. I believe He not only wants reconciliation with all mankind, but that he actually made provision for them through Christ. I'll exit while quoting one more scripture which I believe supports this claim.

Rom 8:18-23
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

Todd

[Guest]

You are right. But where does it say or even imply that He must show mercy in every case? Aren't you being presumptious? Wasn't it God who told Moses; "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy"? Just because these things youv'e cited are true of God's character, I wouldn't even suggest He is bound in some absolute sense to display them in every case. Jesus was rebuking the Pharisees for "majoring in the minors" while rejecting and at the expense of the weightier matters of the Law. He was not giving them a theology lesson about God's character, but rebuking them for their misplaced emphasis on externals.


So Bob, Jesus is the exact image of God and has the fullness of God and when we see Jesus we see the Father. And he tells us to "love our enemies" and he says "blessed are the merciful" because we should conform ourselves to be like Christ and Christ is the exact image of God.
So these attributes of Jesus are the attributes of Yahweh and though these are God's attributes you say it's presumptous of me to think that God will act in accordance with his own character.
So if you think it's presumptous of me to think God will act by his own character then how will he act?
I think one of the reasons Jesus came was so we could know God in a way he was never known before and i think Jesus did accomplish this.
Not that Jesus is a doormat mind you but i believe he will punish us and refine us and purify us in a way comenserate with justice and mercy, not with eternal damnation for 99% of humanity which is the traditional view.

[Guest]

Hello Steve7150,

I am sorry you missed my point about God's character. Are you suggesting God is 'out of character' when He chooses to withold mercy and display divine justice through His wrath? Was God any less loving in His character when He destroyed the world with the Flood? Lots of babies
were drowned, women, the elderly, animals were all swept away. Now I don't have a clue as to what the worlds population was at the time, but lets say for arguments sake it was 900 million. The account in Genesis tells us only 8 were spared! So what percentage of people were destroyed to those saved do you come up with?

You see Steve, we are really not talking at all about the God of the Bible
if you insist with your presupositions that God is somehow 'out of character' when He displays His Justice. Justice is not mercy. But neither is it injustice. If God chooses to display His mercy to some and justice to others, He is acting according to His own Holy character and pleasure.
It really matters little if His justice is meeted out eternally or temporally.
He is always righteous and 'in character' to do so. He is never obligated to His creation to show mercy. That He is merciful, and He teaches us to be likewise in our treatment of others, (bretheren especially) doesn't imply that we are obligated to be merciful in every case. We are called to be faithful. Sometimes we are called upon as jurors in our society in capital
cases. If you were a juror in a murder case that called for the death penalty, would you be doing violence to Gods call upon you to be merciful, knowing full well a conviction calls for a death sentance?


Peace in Him,
Bob