"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lord

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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:44 pm

Hi Rachel,
You wrote:Were the disciples saved by faith or by sight? I believe the disciples had faith, but yet they also had sight. Why does belief have to be absent from sight?
I believe the Bible teaches all people of all time are saved by God's grace through faith; that salvation is obtained only in this life. Maybe my post had too many details (I don't see any replies to what I asked, other than from Bob). At any rate, I don't believe the Bible says we can be saved after we die, or that salvation will be offered -- during or after -- Judgment Day (when we all will actually come before God, seeing Him), imo.

Thanks, :)
Rick
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“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth

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_Rick_C
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Post by _Rick_C » Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:33 am

(The English word) Hell:
Old English hel, helle "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions," from Proto Germanic. khaljo (cf. Old Frisian. helle, Old Norse hel, German. Hölle, Gothic. halja "hell") "the underworld," lit. "concealed place," from Proto-Indo-European kel- "to cover, conceal, save" (see cell). The Eng. word may be in part from Old Norse. Hel (from Proto Germanicc. khalija "one who covers up or hides something")
Source: Online Etymology Dictionary
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“In Jesus Christ God ordained life for man, but death for himself” -- Karl Barth

_STEVE7150
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:46 am

Jesus is referring to the prophecy of Isaiah. In the final statement of this book of prophecy we find a judgment scene, and we see the joy of God's people as they behold His righteous judgment on their behalf against His (and their) enemies.


Yes "gehenna" actually means God's JUDGEMENT not eternal hell but God's judgement and the OT has plenty to say about what happens when God's righteous judgement comes to the earth.
The people may be joyful when their enemies are destroyed but God is more merciful then people are toward each other.
That's why God said to "love your enemies" while people still can't.
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_TK
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Post by _TK » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:46 am

for universalists:

what does the "wide gate and path that leads to destruction" mean? i know that Todd would say that "destruction" relates to things that occur before death, but what about the rest of you?

TK
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"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)

_STEVE7150
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:00 am

what does the "wide gate and path that leads to destruction" mean?



I think it means following the kingdom of the world into gehenna/perish/hades/lake of fire/judgement.
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_Father_of_five
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Post by _Father_of_five » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:38 am

Traveler wrote:Why else would Jesus draw a contrast between death from a milstone around the neck as "better"?
Bob,

Jesus was contrasting the consequences of 'offending a child' to death. It seems to me, He was saying that dying would be more merciful than those consequences. It could be that Jesus was referring to "this life" consequences. We are not told specifically. We do know that today, in our society, child molesters are punished severely by criminal courts (which are God's ministers to execute His wrath). And this is only part of God's wrath; the most severe occurs in the heart and soul of the disobient when convicted by the Holy Spirit of their sin (John 16:8 ).

Rom 13:1-5
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.

This is very plain language explaining that God's wrath is poured out on the living, not the dead. Verse 5 would have been a good time to mention a post-death hell if one existed.

Todd
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Post by _Father_of_five » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:52 am

Al Maxey wrote:Please note here that the text says the Lord will SLAY these ungodly ones, it does not declare the Lord will TORTURE them. Notice also that the redeemed will be able to witness the RESULT of this destruction carried out by God against the wicked:
That's right, they are slain, they are dead. No mention of any post-death punishment here! They (the living) suffered God's wrath which lead to their death. But we do know that they will rise again.

Acts 24:15
I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Todd
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Post by _Father_of_five » Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:17 am

Traveler wrote:They did! But 99%? C'mon Paidion! A little hyperbole here? You gotta an inside track with the Lord as to who makes it and who don't? :lol:
Got any good lottery numbers? 8)
Bob,

How many people in the history of mankind have heard the gospel message of Christ? What percent would you estimate have had it presented to them? Those who died before Christ certainly didn't hear it. Of those who have lived since only a small percentage have really heard a fair presentation of it. Even today, if you live in the Islamic lands you have little chance of hearing the gospel properly presented. So the percentage must be very small.

So what is the end of those who haven't heard it? Is it fair to send those who have not heard the gospel to post-death hell? Where do these fit into your understanding of the truth? I would estimate that the majority of mankind fits into this catagory. The 'orthodox' view has no answers from the scriptures about these. BTW, neither does the annihilationist view. Think of it...no answer for the majority of mankind!

Todd
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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:43 pm

TK wrote:for universalists:

what does the "wide gate and path that leads to destruction" mean? i know that Todd would say that "destruction" relates to things that occur before death, but what about the rest of you?


I still reject the "Universalist" label, though I am a believer in the reconciliation of all rational beings to God.

Enter by the narrow gate; for the road is wide and spacious which leads to destruction and many are those who enter it. For the gate is narrow and the road constricted that leads to life, and few are those who find it.

TK, I thought I had addressed this question in this thread in my response to Homer on Oct 16, but in rereading it, I see that I was not very thorough.

Jesus is asking people to enter the Narrow gate and go down the constricted road (or "The Narrow Path" of which Steve Gregg speaks).
For this road leads to life. Those few who take it (fewer than 1% of all people who have ever lived), will be able to be with the Lord in the next life without having to undergo the pain of many ages in Gehenna.

The wide and spacious road leads to destruction in Gehenna, that is, destruction of the person who is corrected in Gehenna in his sinful nature, so that the new regenerated righteous person may come forth as pure gold. But that is a painful process, and Jesus wants people to escape it by becoming His disiciples.
That is not the only reason Jesus calls people to discipleship; indeed it is not the main reason. The main reason is that Jesus wants to destroy sin, and enable man to overcome it. Escaping Gehenna is one of the consequences of following the constricted path to the end.
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"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald

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_Homer
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Post by _Homer » Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:54 pm

Hello Paidion,

You wrote:
It seems that the apostle Paul was well acquainted with the teachings of our Lord Jesus. He brought the gospel to the Gentile world to a greater extent than any other apostle. In the 12 (or maybe 13) letters which he wrote, which constitute 26% (or 30% if you include Hebrews) of the entire New Testament, he often warned people about God's judgment, but he never mentioned Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire even once. Shouldn't that great apostle and evangelist, who suffered much for his faith and his evangelical work, have warned his listeners of their danger of ending up in etermal torment forever? I don't think this bold man of God neglected to do so out of fear of what his hearers would think of him.

So if over 99% of people who have ever lived, die without trust in Christ, and go to eternal torment, why did none of the apostles warn those of their own day about this fate? And why did they not write about it in their epistles so that future generations as well as their readers, could be warned?
As I understand the point you are making (an argument from silence), if eternal punishment is true, why did Paul not warn those to whom he preached concerning this fate? Since he and the other apostles did not, the belief must be false.

I would turn this argument around. Since eternal punishment was a belief held prominently by the Jews, and also by many of the gentiles (it was so well known among the gentiles that it has been charged by some that they were the source of the Jew's belief in it), why would Paul and the Apostles need to mention any more than the coming judgement while preaching the gospel?

Given this well known belief among both Jews and gentiles, current during the preaching of Jesus and the Apostles, what is more telling is the fact that they never thought to disabuse those they preached to of this supposed falsehood. It is particularly surprising that Jesus never corrected the Pharisees in this matter given His many confrontations with them.

You provided evidence of this belief of the Parisees, of whom Josephus was one, in the link you provided in your post on October 10. Here is a quote from Josephus' discourse:
by giving justly to those that have done well an everlasting fruition; but allotting to the lovers of wicked works eternal punishment. To these belong the unquenchable fire, and that without end, and a certain fiery worm, never dying, and not destroying the body, but continuing its eruption out of the body with never-ceasing grief: neither will sleep give ease to these men, nor will the night afford them comfort; death will not free them from their punishment, nor will the interceding prayers of their kindred profit them; for the just are no longer seen by them, nor are they thought worthy of remembrance.
He certainly left no room for arguing over the meaning of aionios!
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