"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess the Lord

[Guest]

Wow, what a great discussion! I probably won't have a chance to post anything substantive for a couple of days, but wanted to make two quick comments:

One thing I hope that this dialog has brought out is that Christian Universalism is a viable alternative to Arminianism and Calvinism. Christian Universalists are devout followers of Jesus who can support their view scripturally, logically and philosophically.

Rae, I've often wondered if the composer of "Come, Now is the Time to Worship" is a Universalist.

[Guest]

To the Universalist this and similar statements are sign as assurance that all will ultimately be saved. I think they must be seen, in the context of Jesus' parables, as a warning to act now, before it is too late! Two closely related parables contain this message:

Luke 13:22-30 (NKJV)

22 And He went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. 23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate,for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”

And when will this be that there will be those turned away by Jesus? Certainly not in this life.

There is certainly a “cut-off point” when the door will be shut. Perhaps it will be at the time of their resurrection. Those who will think they are acceptable because Jesus was with them in their cities and heard Him speak, will be thrust out of the kingdom of God. This is also in keeping with the following instruction of Jesus:

Enter by the narrow gate; for the road is wide and spacious which leads to destruction and many are those who enter it. For the gate is narrow and the road constricted that leads to life, and few are those who find it.

Jesus called His disciples a “little flock”, and this is in keeping with our own observations today. Very few people are true disciples of Christ. Most --- even many who are called “Christians” --- live for themselves, and not for Christ.

However, there is nothing in any of the parables you quoted, which indicates that the condition of the excluded will continue eternally.
The “little flock” of all ages probably constitute less than one tenth of one percent of all people. If only those will be with the Lord forever, then it would appear that Satan is the victor, and not the Lord Jesus. And who will tolerate that blasphemous idea.

So in what way is “the little flock” benefited in a way that no one else is? They are the ones who have been traveling the narrow road, and who are justified now, and will be on that day in which our Lord returns and puts the finishing touches upon the righteous, so that they will be complete and totally conformed to His image. They will then be ready to be with Him forever. However, anyone “outside the shut door” will receive a most severe mercy. They will require correction of a most painful kind. And, TK, they may be willing to do anything to escape the pain, but I doubt most will not be willing to repent and submit immediately, not in a heartfelt way. Even if they do, that may not mean that they will go immediately into the Lord’s presence. Here and now, in this life, we don’t go immediately into the Lord’s presence when we repent…so why assume that it will be the case there?

The fact that they are lost and spiritually dead, does not imply that that will be their eternal state. Remember Jesus parable of the loving father, who said of his wayward son?

“This my son was lost and is found, was dead and is alive.”

The Greek word for “lost” is is none other than “apollumi” (destroyed).

Those who will be spiritually dead in Gehenna can be made alive! The lost can be found! Those who are destroyed can be reclaimed!

This does not “make the warnings of Jesus and the apostles ring hollow”. If we had the slightest idea of what it means to spend ages of ages in Gehenna, we would never even think such a thought let alone write it. We would warn a person who intended to enter a fiery building, wouldn’t we? They would be facing some bad pain, or perhaps even death. But that would be miniscule compare to a single month in Gehenna.

Homer, if you knew some good news, that the man didn’t have to enter the fiery building, since his little girl was already saved, would you consider your good news unnecessary? After all, the man won’t have to be in the burning building forever!

Can you see why the fact that God is going to reconcile all things to Himself in no way diminishes the necessity of the good news of Kingdom?

[_TK]

well, when you put it like that...

TK

[Guest]

And Rae wrote:
Quote:
Didn't Thomas seek a sign before he believed? And he wasn't chastised for it.

Seems Jesus' reply to Thomas was a bit of a put-down. And he is "doubting Thomas" to this day. Doubt is not a commendable quality. "....for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind."

John 20:26-29 "After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus *came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace {be} with you." Then He *said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing." Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus *said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed {are} they who did not see, and {yet} believed."

How is that a put down? It seems to me he was very accommodating to Thomas' questions and "doubt." He could have said the exact same thing to the other disciples who saw him before Thomas...

John 20:19-20 "So when it was evening on that day, the first {day} of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and *said to them, "Peace {be} with you." And when He had said this, He showed them both His hands and His side. The disciples then rejoiced when they saw the Lord."

They didn't rejoice and recognize Him as the Lord until they saw His hands and His side. Isn't that the same as Thomas?

And just because he is called "doubting Thomas" by many today doesn't mean the Lord thought of him in that way.

And:
Quote:
Didn't all of the apostles make a confession based on sight?

Seems that was their only option.

I agree, but your original point in your post that I quoted seemed to indicate that a confession made by sight was just like being a "wicked and adulterous generation." This would put the disciples in that category, since they also made a confession based on sight.

Good to hear from a sister on this subject!

I usually hesitate to jump in on these type of topics except to ask questions. I'm still not sure how, as a woman, to interact with men on theological issues.

[_TK]

come on you gals- take a deep breath and just hit enter! i have no delusions of grandeur about keeping up with the minds on this forum. i am sure that i speak for everyone here, though, that we wish you would post more often than you do.

TK

[Guest]

come one you gals- take a deep breath and just hit enter! i have no delusions of grandeur about keeping up with the minds on this forum. i am sure that i speak for everyone here, though, that we wish you would post more often than you do.

TK

Me too! I would like to know your insight on this subject.

Todd

[Guest]

Hello Todd'

You wrote: "I could disagree more! According to the traditional view, the Cross of Christ only ultimately saves a few. The Universalist view says that God's desire that all be saved is actually accomplished through Christ. It is the traditional view that "empties the Cross of Christ of its fullest sense."

There is a big difference between God's desire "that all repent and come to a knowlage of the truth" and our freedom to choose contrary to His will.
I assume you are not a Calvinist? If you do indeed believe in "free will" then please be consistant. The assumption that "all" will ultimatetly be saved in Christ is based upon a kind of coerision rather than persuasion. One view forces the issue (universalism) of salvation upon the ungodly by actually subjecting the person to "torture" in the "fires of gehenna" in order to convince him against his desire, to submit to Christ. The other view (Orthodoxy) preserves the persons freedom to choose his destiny through God's grace persuasively and truly out of love. Love cannot act forcefully. It would be a kind of rape. I do not believe our Father in Heaven is a divine rapist. The is also a great difference in being "subjected" to the Lords will and submitting your will to Him.

I do believe God's grace is limited. I believe the Bible is consistant on the matter. There will be a time when the door is shut that "no one can open".
We love to quote the first part of John 3:16; "for God so loved the world that He gave His one and only begotten Son" .. Some how "universalism"
looses the rest of the story in their "ultimate dream world" that all will have a happy ending. I wish that were the case. I lost my mother two years ago and I really do not know where she stood with the Lord. But I trust the Lord will always do right-even when I don't know or understand.

" IN flaming fire, taking vengence on them that know not God, and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall be punished
with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the PRESENSE of the Lord, and from the glory of His power." II Thess. 1:8-9 KJV

[Guest]

It sounds like the universalist position is that those who are unwilling to obey the gospel in this life will become willing after death. Where is this taught in the Bible? Speaking of the gospel: Where does the Bible say it will be preached after the Second Coming and the end of the age?

Ephesians 2 (NASB)
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

So, according to universalists is there "two plans of God" to save all? If I understand the universalist position right:
Plan One: the "Ephesians 2:8 plan" was good for the Ephesians and for us and anyone else who has faith while they are alive.
Plan Two: for those who don't have 'while alive' faith like us and the Ephesians there's another way to be saved? By grace through unbelief???? (I really don't think so).....

Hebrews 11 (NASB)
1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

The consensus on the thread seems to be that "Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord" will be on Judgment Day, right? (and as I mentioned earlier, we who believe have already done that). So. Those who were atheists and/or unbelievers will stand before God and confess, in both the 'orthodox' and the universalist view, if I'm not mistaken....
However, on Judgment Day no one will NEED faith. There He will be, and there we all will be: No faith required. So, in universalist belief is there an "exemption clause" for those who do not believe "He (God) is"? and rewards those who seek Him? (Btw, all of humanity won't have or need to seek Him on Judgment Day coz RIGHT THERE He will be)!

Universalism believes only some are saved by grace through faith? and others will be saved by grace 'after death' through.....what?

Where does the Bible say God Elects the dead? (literally physically dead, not we of the former "dead in sins" kind)?

Biblical salvation begins in this life from Genesis to Revelation. What is the universalist answer to this?

Please cite the Bible, thanks.


Danny,
If you find time I'd like to go into more exegesis.


Bob,
I'm sorry to hear about your mom's death. I, too, have had relatives who died...and I didn't know their status with the Lord. I take comfort that God is a righteous judge (he does it totally right) and also am fairly convinced of the annihilationist view. Annihilation (coming to nothing) sounds like an easy alternative to the traditional 'eternal fire' view. But I can't imagine "not being"...(try to, it is impossible). The Second Death of Revelation 20 has 'led me toward' annihilationism (in context, with the rest of the Bible, of course). Steve Gregg isn't "committed" to annihilationism or the traditional view. In his lectures on Rev 20 and "three views of hell" he exegetes relative passages and presents all views.

Saved by God's grace through faith in the while still being alive way,
Is there any other?
Rick

[Guest]

It sounds like the universalist position is that those who are unwilling to obey the gospel in this life will become willing after death. Where is this taught in the Bible? Speaking of the gospel: Where does the Bible say it will be preached after the Second Coming and the end of the age?

We had long discussions on this under "Alternative Views of Hell." I take Revelation as mostly chronological and after unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire i think there are several allusions that the gates of the kingdom are open.
But as late as Rev 22.15 there are still sinners outside the gates but in Rev 22.17 comes a final call to "whosoever may partake in the water of life may come" which is spoken by the Spirit and the Bride to people in the LOF, as i see it.
IMO this is the time every tongue should confess Jesus as Lord. At this point any unrepentent will be destroyed completely since the bible says evil must be destroyed not just contained.

[Guest]

Rick,

Were the disciples saved by faith or by sight? I believe the disciples had faith, but yet they also had sight. Why does belief have to be absent from sight?

BTW, I'm not a universalist, I probably, like you, lean more towards annihilationalism. I just don't think this is a valid argument against universalism.

-Rachel