True Forgiveness

[Guest]

Hi Paidion,

We know it was God's Will that the nation of Israel accept Messiah Jesus. But they didn't (as a whole) and had Him crucified. Had they accepted Him (theoretically speaking); God's forgiveness could have come directly through repentance...(and we would still have to offer up animals?). In any event, things didn't happen this way.

Christ came to deliver (save, rescue) God's people from their sins. And, at the time of His coming, the people of God were ethnic (national) Israel...not we Gentiles, as of yet.

The RYLT reads: Matt 26:27 and having taken the cup, and having given thanks, he gave to them, saying, `Drink you of it -- all; 28 for this is my blood of the new covenant, that for many is being poured out -- to remission of sins;

"Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins."

Like Bob, your ideas seem really farout to me. Look at the book of Hebrews (in its entirety)....you've lost me on this one, Don!
Rick

P.S. Hi Bob

[Guest]

Bob,

A question for all: How do you feel or what do you think about God when reading the OT? I mean the stories that reveal the apparent brutality of God's judgements found there.

(As we have several sub-topics going on here):

God deals with and reveals Himself to people in their precise historical context. In those days, Israel was a theocracy just like (probably) all other nations. National gods defend their own people against others that either want to take them over (and convert them by force) or obliterate them.

To illustrate this, modern day Islamic nations (like Iran with its current leadership) is the scenario ancient Israel found itself in. In a way, it is in a same kind of setting (though a majority of Israelis are not religious Jews). Religious Jews (hyper-orthodox) have an "OT view of God"...they fight real warfare....

God's election of Israel (see Romans 9) was to have a people through whom He could exercise his ultimate purposes for humanity. The bottom line was Israel had to survive (exist). And to complete His purposes God allowed -- and even endorsed -- the normative rules of war...or we may have never heard of Israel, God, or Jesus! Back then the weapons of the warfare WERE carnal....it's just how things WERE.

Israel could have said to the other nations, "We won't fight because we love you and so does our God." The thing was, He didn't love those other nations, their gods, or their peoples...who were ruled by the devil! (though some did leave their own country to join God's).

No longer do we wage physical (military) war...as God's Kingdom invades all nations of the earth! with some very Good News!

Today, the Kingdom does not reside in a particular nation or ethnic group. And if Israel didn't fight back back then...we would have no Messiah. (If they sed "Uncle".....well, they just couldn't do that)!

It wasn't yet "the fullness of the times"...the Father knew when to send His Son; when all the earth was ready for the Universal Kingdom!

This probably doesn't explain much...just some imo's.
Rick

P.S. Topics like this can always be on a new thread (suggestion coz I want to keep talking with Michelle)

[Guest]

Hey Rick,

I had in the back of my mind when I pointed to the "apparent brutality" of God's judgements we find in the OT, specifically, The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the story of Uzzah, Nadab and Abihu etc..

Really, I think these "sub-topics" you allude to are important in framing our understanding of God's foregiveness. God apparently does not forgive sin without a payment of some kind. Sometimes God acts in mercy. Mercy is not justice. Neither is it injustice. We expect God to be gracious-and He is. But we are disturbed when His wrath (judicial justice) is visited upon sin with "speed and finality". Some stumble here. Some have a hard time reconciling a God of Love with a God of Wrath and vengence.
Some forget that the God of the OT is the same God we find in the NT. The account in Acts of Ananias and Sapphira as an example, bear witness to this fact. Paidion may hold a liberal view of God that tends to "play down" or soften Gods judicial wrath. Maybe he will clarify for us what he means.

Peace in Him,
Bob

[Guest]

Greetings,

Hey!

1. Yes, to truly know what forgiveness is, one would have to do it (like one would have to eat a mango, I suppose? Though I'm having a hard time following your analogy), lol

Oops, sorry...I did say that it was probably a dumb analogy. Yes, I meant that to know forgiveness one has to do it, just like I would have to eat a mango to truly know it. However, I think Jesus was giving us more than just a definition and an amount for "forgiveness," which helps in our knowing.

2. Peter's question was a common theological question that would have been asked to any rabbi. I don't feel Peter's understanding was "off"; just lacking with regard to what Rabbi Jesus taught. Rabbi So&so says up to 3 times a day, while Rabbi Such&such says 7 times, and "What do you say, Rabbi Jesus?" etc., etc.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here, so I want to run this by you. Are you saying that as Jesus spoke about child-like faith and offenses and lost sheep and forgiveness, Peter was nodding his head thinking 'yes, yes...leave, let alone, give up, omit, permit, allow, to give up a debt. Got it. Oh, yes, and this is where I'm supposed to ask how many times...' And Jesus, hearing his question, realized that he understood the theological implications and was a good rabbinical student to remember to ask this important question and was just giving his opinion on the matter? If so, how interesting that we can have such opposite interpretations of this episode and yet come to almost the very same conclusions about life in Christ.

Amen, on it's the lifestyle! Not just MDR's (minimum daily requirements) on: How to be a good enuf Jew...or Christian!

Thanks for the "amen."

3. Forgiveness, in my experience (and as we have been defining it biblically), hasn't had any predictable feeling attached to it. It "feels good" to know I've done the right thing...which brings freedom. Forgiveness probably always has that "feeling of liberation" but it is not without restraint and discipline, in my case, anyway. (Like, I don't think about past offenses/offenders...bitterness could creep back in).....

It may -- or may not -- bring a happy, warm-fuzzies feeling and could involve detachment; or what the 12 steppers call "powerlessness" (to change anyone other than me). It might involve a cramped feeling of having to muzzle myself (Don't you say a single word, Rick!).

Freedom is probably the only feeling that is always linked to forgiveness (I don't know). And, well, of course, love has to do with it, always. I can love someone without especially liking them or what they do or what they believe....

I agree.

4. I'm glad you're enjoying this talk, Michelle (me too). But I want you to know that I'm not an expert on forgiveness!!! In fact, as I considered examples of people I have forgiven I wondered if I truly had...or if there might still be some bitterness or resentment in my heart (and there isn't!). As you said, forgiving is not a regimented magical formula or a purely rational decision (though it certainly takes resolve). When I encounter some of the people I mentioned...I pray! Or if I know I am going to see them, I pray for them in advance, asking that God would improve our relationship (and He definitely does)!

It's tougher than it initially seems, isn't it?

One thing though. I've recently noticed that some things that used to really upset me no longer matter...or matter as much. I give all credit to God for my progress, Who gives wisdom liberally to all who ask.

Amen!

James 3, RYLT (Revised Young's Literal Translation):
13 Who [is] wise and intelligent among you? let him show out of the good behaviour his works in meekness of wisdom, 14 and if bitter zeal you have, and rivalry in your heart, glory not, nor lie against the truth; 15 this wisdom is not descending from above, but earthly, physical, demon-like, 16 for where zeal and rivalry [are], there is insurrection and every evil matter; 17 and the wisdom from above, first, indeed, is pure, then peaceable, gentle, easily entreated, full of kindness and good fruits, uncontentious, and unhypocritical: -- 18 and the fruit of the righteousness in peace is sown to those making peace.

Sorry if the literal translation hard to read (I like it coz it's so analytical & tense accurate, etc., etc., lol)
Rick

Ha! I read the passage before your apology and was thinking the whole time how much sense it made and how easy to read. Sometimes I think I have a strange mind.

P.S. Topics like this can always be on a new thread (suggestion coz I want to keep talking with Michelle) Wink

Aw

[Guest]

Michelle:

3. This is what I mean when I say I want to know what forgiveness is. I want more than just "head knowledge." I want to know what it feels like in my heart, and how I do it with my hands and feet. I want to know what words of forgiveness are. I want to know how you manage it when it's really, really hard. And I want to make sure that I'm not treating it too lightly when it's really, really easy.

I really appreciate this, Michelle! I hope you get to taste the mango soon!

I have had the privilege both of forgiving and being forgiven in the way in which I described "forgiveness". There's nothing like it! There was a complete restoration of relationship. It was just as if the offender had done nothing wrong!

I have also been told that I was forgiven in cases where I wondered what the "forgiving" person meant. I still felt there was something wrong. One case particularily felt like a slap in the face: "Don, I forgave you a long time ago!"

I thought the mango analogy was excellent. By the way, mangoes are my favourite fruit! Just make sure it's good and ripe before you try it.
Once when I spent a week in Grenada, a Christian brother brought me a bag of manoes fresh from the tree. They were excruciatingly delicious! Smaller than the ones I buy from Safeway here in Canada, but much more scrumptuous. I hope you enjoy the taste of a mango soon ---- both literally and figuratively!

[Guest]

Thanks for you kind words, Paidion.

I just want to say (and I'm not sure why... pride?) that I'm not a person bound up with bitterness who refuses to forgive. Actually, to opposite is probably the truth; things that bother other people often don't seem to bother me. I've had people apologize about stuff for which I took no offense. Plus, I've found it easy enough to re-establish relationships with people who have done harm to me. I also find myself in awe that God has forgiven my numerous egregious sins against Him; I could never thank and praise Him enough.

I'll take your word for it on mangoes. I don't like very many fruits, and the ones I like are the blander flavors.

[Guest]

I've had people apologize about stuff for which I took no offense.

Apologize? Are you using the word in the original sense of explaining why they did what they did? Or do you mean they said, "I'm sorry"? People often do that in a very light manner, when they bump into you, or even if they've done nothing about which to be sorry. Some even do it to express their disagreement with you: "I'm sorry, but what I said is the truth."

Has anyone expressed regret for their actions? Have they indicated that they view their former wrong choices differently now? Have they asked your forgiveness for what they did?

[Guest]

I've had people apologize about stuff for which I took no offense.

Apologize? Are you using the word in the original sense of explaining why they did what they did? Or do you mean they said, "I'm sorry"? People often do that in a very light manner, when they bump into you, or even if they've done nothing about which to be sorry. Some even do it to express their disagreement with you: "I'm sorry, but what I said is the truth."

Has anyone expressed regret for their actions? Have they indicated that they view their former wrong choices differently now? Have they asked your forgiveness for what they did?

By apologize I mean that people express regret for their actions or attitudes. I've had people say, "I'm sorry that I had such an unloving attitude," and I'll wonder when was that? Or, they'll say they are sorry for being rude when I just thought they were expressing their opinion with passion. And I don't believe that I'm so socially inept that subtle indications of mood fly over my head, I just think that negativity doesn't offend me very much.

Once I had an old boyfriend ask for my forgiveness for the way he treated me and the whole time I was thinking it was to my advantage to be rid of him. <-- That was probably a poor example.

For what it's worth, it amuses me when people say, "I'm sorry, but what I said is the truth." Why would you be sorry for speaking the truth, even if it's painful to hear? (I'm starting to think that perhaps I AM a little inept socially.)

[Guest]

Here is an example from my life... not sure where it fits in, but it's a situation where I was repentant and I didn't feel truly "forgiven" (using the typical definition of forgiven), even though the person would've said I was "forgiven".

When I was about 12 years old, I faked appendicitis so that I wouldn't have to clean my room (yes, DUMB!) Anyway, I faked it so well, that I ended up in the hospital with my appendix removed. I never told my mom, not because I wasn't repentant and didn't realize how stupid it was, but because I felt that she would get pretty angry.

Anyway, my sophomore year in college, for a public speaking class, we had to give a speech on something humorous that happened in our lives. I wrote my "appendicitis" story out and used that for my speech. Somehow, the written copy ended up in my closet at the home I grew up in and my mom found it and read it.

I told her how sorry I was and how stupid it was of me, etc... but she was still very angry (this being almost 10 years later). I did not feel that our relationship was "restored" for a while after that, even though she would have definitely said that she had forgiven me. She was just still hurt, and probably, as a mom, more upset with herself for not seeing through it.

Even now I don't think she could talk about the "incident" without becoming angry and frustrated (maybe not necessarily with me, but with the situation and all).

According to some, forgiveness would be the letting go of the anger and frustration. But, from what some of you have said, and I agree, that we should put away anger and bitterness and such ANYWAY, regardless of repentance.

So, if the anger and bitterness are already put away before the other person repents (which they should be), then what would forgiveness look like? The only thing that was preventing the "relationship being restored" was the frustration and perceived bitterness. Once these things are put away, and the offending person repents, then the relationship IS restored (as long as the one repenting wants to restore the relationship as well).

I didn't "feel" forgiven by my mom because I didn't "feel" like the relationship was completely restored. But I believe that my mom truly did forgive me, even though I didn't "feel" like it.

I guess, like everyone else, I'm just trying to work through what exactly forgiveness is. Is it putting aside anger and resentment? Is it restoring the relationship? Doesn't putting aside anger and resentment restore the relationship? So are they almost the same thing?

OOORRR...

Maybe forgiveness just means not giving out the punishment that is due. "If my brother sins against me, how many times should I forgive him?" For example, at this point, under the law, let's say someone slept with Peter's wife. This person had sinned against Peter. Peter had the right (obligation?) to have him killed. To forgive the person, would be dropping the consequences (the killing of the offender). Of course, this would only be done if the man repented. And maybe Jesus is saying that you drop the consequences of the sin, if the person repents, an infinite number of times.

Maybe these verses about forgiveness have nothing to do with bitterness or relationships being restored, but with not carrying out our "rights" in the punishment of someone who has sinned against us and repented.


Not saying this is the case, these are just some thoughts that I would like to get other's opinions on. Sorry if it's kind of jumbled... I was typing as I thought.

[Guest]

Brothers/sisters,

Watching this dialoge so far, I have noticed that "foregiveness" is most often centerd in peoples emotional responses to either a wrong they have commited or recieved. That we feel anger, resentment and bitterness toward someone who has wronged us is certainly understandable. It may even be the "hardest" part of foregiveness (the emotional hurt) and take the longest for us to overcome. But what I have in mind is more centered on the "legal" aspect of foregiveness. We find centered in God's economy of justice, the demand of a "payment" before foregiveness will be granted. A kind of satisfaction must be paid to the Law's demand for making right a wrong committed. This is true in the bible and in our society. When a criminal has "paid his debt to society", he is restored to the community ( in most cases). He is "foregiven" because the debt has been paid and the Law of the Land has no further claim upon him.

In Christ of course, our "debt" has been paid. The Law no longer has a claim upon us. God the Law Giver was satisfied with Jesus' payment.
In this context, the debt we owed God was unpayable by us, but paid by another...Jesus, the Lamb without spot or blemish.. Here is where we must understand that if we do not foregive others as God has foregiven us, there is no benefit, no mercy and ultimately no salvation to be had in Christ! We will end up "paying to the last penney" the debt we owe to the Supreme Judge ourselves. Thats a scary thought!

In Jesus,
Bob