The Called Of God

[Guest]

The question is whether or not God commands people to do things that they cannot do. Perhaps we cannot live a sinless life. Does the Bible command that we be sinless in our fallen state? I see commands to be holy and blameless. "Holy" means wholly consecrated to God; "blameless" means to live such that God doers not affix blame to our account (if we repent of our sins, there is no blame affixed—1 John 1:7, 9). Both are entirely possible, which is why they are commanded.

Romans 7 describes a failure to live a sinless life without the power of the Holy Spirit. It does not tell us that a man must live without the Spirit. By one interpretation, Paul is talking about a current struggle (as opposed to a hypothetical description of an unsaved man). I assume this is the way you would understand it. In any event, the passage does not speak directly of blame—only wretched weakness. The pertinent question is, does God anywhere forbid or condemn us for being weak and for stumbling (does any father condemn such in a small child?), or does He expect us to maintain the struggle against sin and to repent when we fall? If the latter (as I believe), then He only commands what we are capable of doing, and nothing more.

[_james]

The question is whether or not God commands people to do things that they cannot do. Perhaps we cannot live a sinless life. Does the Bible command that we be sinless in our fallen state? I see commands to be holy and blameless. "Holy" means wholly consecrated to God; "blameless" means to live such that God doers not affix blame to our account (if we repent of our sins, there is no blame affixed—1 John 1:7, 9). Both are entirely possible, which is why they are commanded.

Steve is the unregengerated man morally required to keep the law? By nature can he? And if He doesn't is he not still held accountable by God?

Romans 7 describes a failure to live a sinless life without the power of the Holy Spirit. It does not tell us that a man must live without the Spirit. By one interpretation, Paul is talking about a current struggle (as opposed to a hypothetical description of an unsaved man). I assume this is the way you would understand it. In any event, the passage does not speak directly of blame—only wretched weakness. The pertinent question is, does God anywhere forbid or condemn us for being weak and for stumbling (does any father condemn such in a small child?), or does He expect us to maintain the struggle against sin and to repent when we fall? If the latter (as I believe), then He only commands what we are capable of doing, and nothing more.

In context Steve Paul's "weakness" bears on his ability to keep the commandments: "thou shall not covet" for example. Does his "weakness" now mean that he is not held accountable for being a law breaker? I mean if I follow your logic, God lowers His moral standard according to our ability.

[Guest]

It's not that God lowers His moral standards to accommodate our inability (although, "He knoweth our frame; He remembereth that we are dust"), but, rather, that He accepts repentance in place of perfection. If an unregenerate man can repent, then he can meet God's requirements (i.e., the requirement of repentance). Calvinists believe that such a man cannot. In the parable of the prodigal, Jesus implies that such a man can "come to himself," and repent. When the prodigal did this, his father overlooked a multitude of sins. I understand the Bible to teach that God is this way also.

You ask if an unregenerate man can keep the Law. If you mean the Old Testament law, of course, there is no reason to believe that he cannot. Moses said that the law was not inaccessible to the Israelites (Deut.30:11-14), and there were some, like the rich, young ruler, who were unregenerate, but had apparently kept the commandments from his youth (Mark 10:19-20).

If one wishes to say that a man cannot live his life without sleeping with women other than his wife, without murdering others, without stealing, without cursing God, without slandering and without dishonoring his parents, I would say that the one saying so is judging all men by his own experience. However, man's sinfulness remains a problem, even if he keeps the Jewish laws, and repentance remains the only remedy.

[_james]

It's not that God lowers His moral standards to accommodate our inability (although, "He knoweth our frame; He remembereth that we are dust"), but, rather, that He accepts repentance in place of perfection. If an unregenerate man can repent, then he can meet God's requirements (i.e., the requirement of repentance). Calvinists believe that such a man cannot. In the parable of the prodigal, Jesus implies that such a man can "come to himself," and repent. When the prodigal did this, his father overlooked a multitude of sins. I understand the Bible to teach that God is this way also.

You ask if an unregenerate man can keep the Law. If you mean the Old Testament law, of course, there is no reason to believe that he cannot. Moses said that the law was not inaccessible to the Israelites, and there were some, like the rich, young ruler, who were unregenerate, but had apparently kept the commandments from his youth.

If one wishes to say that a man cannot live his life without sleeping with women other than his wife, without murdering others, without slandering and without dishonoring his parents, I would say that the one saying so is judging all men by his own experience. However, man's sinfulness remains a problem, even if he keeps the Jewish laws, and repentance remains the only remedy.

1. Steve now I'm not sure of you position. You believe that the unregenerate man can keep the law - sinless in the sense of keeping the law?

2. Yes, I do not believe that a man has the ability to repent apart from God's work in his heart.

3. "No one seeks after God, no one does good, no not one." I believe this is man's universal state apart from regeneration. And it has to do with ability...

[Guest]

James wrote in part:

3. "No one seeks after God, no one does good, no not one." I believe this is man's universal state apart from regeneration. And it has to do with ability...

If that is the universal state of man apart from regeneration, how would you explain man's seeming ability in the following passage from Romans 2?

For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil ... but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good ... For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)

It would seem from this passage that man can chose either to "persevere in well doing" and to seek from God "glory and honour and immortality" or to be "self-seeking" and to be "persuaded by unrighteousness". He can either "do evil" or "do good".

It seems that, according to which choice man makes, God will either give etenal life or wrath and fury.

I am not suggesting that a person can persevere by mere self-effort without God's enabling grace, but the passage does seem to suggest that a man's destiny depends on his choices. And there is no suggestion that those choices themselves are God's doing.

[Guest]

Hi Jim,

In answer to your questions...

1. Steve now I'm not sure of you position. You believe that the unregenerate man can keep the law - sinless in the sense of keeping the law?

I think I stated my position above. Do you wish to attempt a refutation?

2. Yes, I do not believe that a man has the ability to repent apart from God's work in his heart.

I stated my disagreement with your position above. Would you like to attempt a refutation?

3. "No one seeks after God, no one does good, no not one." I believe this is man's universal state apart from regeneration. And it has to do with ability...

I would have thought that my refutation of this misunderstanding of Romans 3 would have passed before your eyes previously (as I have answered it numerous times). I would like to hear an argument that demonstrates your understanding of the passage to be more likely correct than mine.

[_james]

James wrote in part:

3. "No one seeks after God, no one does good, no not one." I believe this is man's universal state apart from regeneration. And it has to do with ability...

If that is the universal state of man apart from regeneration, how would you explain man's seeming ability in the following passage from Romans 2?

For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil ... but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good ... For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)

It would seem from this passage that man can chose either to "persevere in well doing" and to seek from God "glory and honour and immortality" or to be "self-seeking" and to be "persuaded by unrighteousness". He can either "do evil" or "do good".

It seems that, according to which choice man makes, God will either give etenal life or wrath and fury.

I am not suggesting that a person can persevere by mere self-effort without God's enabling grace, but the passage does seem to suggest that a man's destiny depends on his choices. And there is no suggestion that those choices themselves are God's doing.

I'm not sure what you point is in light of my quote. Yes regenerated men will perseverance in well doing - and?

[_james]

Hi Jim,

In answer to your questions...

1. Steve now I'm not sure of you position. You believe that the unregenerate man can keep the law - sinless in the sense of keeping the law?

I think I stated my position above. Do you wish to attempt a refutation?

I believe I already did with the Romans 7 passage. Paul is specifically speaking of the law since he includes the commandment about coveting.

I mean really Steve, if you can find moral abilty here, you are doing something. We are slaves to sin. Before regeneration we were "free from righteousness."

7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

2. Yes, I do not believe that a man has the ability to repent
apart from God's work in his heart.

I stated my disagreement with your position above. Would you like to attempt a refutation?

Ok so you believe that a man can repent without a prior work of God?

3. "No one seeks after God, no one does good, no not one." I believe this is man's universal state apart from regeneration. And it has to do with ability...

I would have thought that my refutation of this misunderstanding of Romans 3 would have passed before your eyes previously (as I have answered it numerous times). I would like to hear an argument that demonstrates your understanding of the passage to be more likely correct than mine.

Yes Steve, this came up in your debate with Gene. I don't see how you can escape the universal nature of the passage. Universal in the sense that it applies to all unbelievers.

BTW Steve, I may not be able to answer you here. I had use of a computer this week and that is about over. Perhaps we could further the discussion by phone.

Peace, Jim ; )

[_Rick_C]

The "I" in Romans chapter seven is descriptive of "a Jew" under the Law and before conversion to Christ (a tad off-topic but...just had to say that)

[Guest]

I believe I already did with the Romans 7 passage. Paul is specifically speaking of the law since he includes the commandment about coveting.

Paul said that while he desires to do good he cannot carry it out. While you can argue this point if you want, it does make another point. Sinful unregenerate man can desire to believe the gospel when they hear it. They don't need to be regenerated first. They believe the gospel and the power of God regenerates them

I mean really Steve, if you can find moral abilty here, you are doing something. We are slaves to sin. Before regeneration we were "free from righteousness."

If being a "slave to sin" and "free from righteousness" means the unregenerate can never do outside of their "nature", then the opposite must also follow, once one has been regenerated and has a new nature then this person is now "set free from sin and have become slaves of God".

Are you willing to say that a regenerated person, who is now a slave to God can never sin?

If it is the case that a slave to God can still sin, then is follows that a slave to sin can also do good.

Ok so you believe that a man can repent without a prior work of God?

Steve can answer this himself, but I would restate Romans 7 as one without the Spirit of God having the ability to desire to do good. The prior work of God is his gospel, which is "the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes" and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Regeneration happens by faith, not before it (IMO).

Yes Steve, this came up in your debate with Gene. I don't see how you can escape the universal nature of the passage. Universal in the sense that it applies to all unbelievers.

There are also universal passages that speak about the universality of those whom Christ died. You don't take those universally, do you?